Robert the Pilegrim
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B.1) The unwillingness of readers to absorb another viewpoint different from the stereotypes they have constructed.Beastt said:
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B.1) The unwillingness of readers to absorb another viewpoint different from the stereotypes they have constructed.Beastt said:If people read your post and base their assumption on what they read, and several of them assume the same thing, the fault for the wrong assumption goes to?
A) The lack of clarity in your post
B) The inability of readers to know what you meant
C) The owner of the website upon which you posted
D) The invisible man behind the undetectable curtain
Who are you claiming has a trademark on the word "god"? (or "your god")?AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:your god
Yes, that is more or less what I've been saying.Although at first glance this seems like a reasonable statement, I dont think you could really make a scientific case for any involvement in the physical world.
You mistake "no physical evidence" for "no evidence".Doesnt this reek of a convenient excuse for why there is no evidence now?
Robert the Pilegrim said:Of course there would be evidence, the question is whether science would be able to trace that evidence reliably to God. The answer is no.AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:I dont think its that simple. If your god really existed and, as you say, wanted to be known then he could offer up some pretty clear evidence (like the sand miracle or lining up stars).Robert the Pilegrim said:No?!? Really? Gosh, I'm so surprized...that you don't follow my point. Sorry but I'm getting a bit aggravated with people who assume what my point is and go from there.AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:Sorry Robert, you seemed to be saying that your god doesnt want to be detected because he puts a high premium on faith. I took it that this was your explanation as to why we dont have any evidence of you god existing today. So what were you trying to say?
So I guess I didnt fail to follow your point.AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:Although at first glance this seems like a reasonable statement, I dont think you could really make a scientific case for any involvement in the physical world.Robert the Pilegrim said:Yes, that is more or less what I've been saying. [God values faith]
I see. This seems to be a common resolution to these lines of discussion I have with theists. I find that theists often claim to have evidence for their belief in their god but when they are asked to supply this evidence it always comes down to the non-physical variety. In your case this is rationalized by claiming that your god places a premium on faith. The one thing I havent heard yet is why. Apparently your god, according to your bible, never had a problem manifesting physically to verify his existence (personally killing people, wrestling people, etc.) in the past. I simply wonder why the conspicuous lack of physical evidence today doesnt raise suspicion on the part of the believer. Is it the simple assertion that you god all of a sudden places a premium on faith and doesnt want to leave any physical evidence?AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:Doesnt this reek of a convenient excuse for why there is no evidence now?Robert the Pilegrim said:You mistake "no physical evidence" for "no evidence".
I speak to theists of different religions and different denominations. Each one has a different brand of god. I put a on it as a reminder that your god is but one of the many gods that have been postulated over the years. Its a constant reminder that your present belief is just one version that has (likely) been handed down to you from your parents (that just happened to believe in your particular brand).Robert the Pilegrim said:Who are you claiming has a trademark on the word "god"? (or "your god")? Why do you think they have such a trademark?
To be picky he manifested physically only a handful of times (the exact number depending on your interpretation of certain passages).AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:Apparently your god, according to your bible, never had a problem manifesting physically to verify his existence.
Robert the Pilegrim said:To be picky he manifested physically only a handful of times
What does it really matter how many times anyway? All that is important is that your god could pony up physical evidence if he wanted to. The only explanation as to why he doesnt is a convenient premium on faith all of a sudden.Gen.12:7 "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
Gen.17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him...."
Gen.18:1 "And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre."
Gen.26:2 "And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.
Gen.26:24 "And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not."
Gen.32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Gen.35:1 "And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother."
Gen.35:7 "And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother."
Gen.35:9 "And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him."
Gen.48:3 "And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan."
Ex.3:16 "The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you."
Ex.4:5 "That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee."
Ex.6:3 "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob...."
Ex.24:9-11 "Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink."
Ex.33:11 "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend."
Ex.33:23 "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."
Num.14:14 "For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face."
Dt.5:4 "The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire."
Dt.34:10 "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face."
Jg.13:22 "And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."
1 Kg.22:19 "I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
Ps.63.2 "To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary."
Is.6:1 "In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up."
Is.6:5 "And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward...."
Ezek.1:27 "For mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
Ezek.20:35 "And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face."
Am.7:7 "The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand."
Am.9:1 "I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake."
Hab.3:3-5 "God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand."
In other words, it's possible that "faith" is the cover story and it is also possible that God has never appeared and that the claims in the Bible are only that -- claims. And if God doesn't exist, that would explain why he never appears, why we have free-will, why there seems to be no discernable pattern to the answering of prayer, why God has never verified anything in the Bible and why the Bible continues to be re-interpreted in an attempt to present itself as being in greater alignment with that which we have learned through science.AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:What does it really matter how many times anyway? All that is important is that your god could pony up physical evidence if he wanted to. The only explanation as to why he doesnt is a convenient premium on faith all of a sudden.
The more important question is whether it is likely that your god places a premium on faith or if its only your religion. In the case of the former it really wouldnt make a difference one way or the other to the entity. In the later, however, it is essential to its survival.
Robert the Pilegrim said:To be picky he manifested physically only a handful of times (the exact number depending on your interpretation of certain passages).
More generally read my response to Beastt.
If the number of physical manifestations mattered I wouldn't have written "picky point".AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:What does it really matter how many times anyway?
"All of a sudden"?All that is important is that your god could pony up physical evidence if he wanted to. The only explanation as to why he doesnt is a convenient premium on faith all of a sudden.
Or both.The more important question is whether it is likely that your god places a premium on faith or if its only your religion.
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