Is Man Born With a Spirit?

Is Man Born With a Spirit?

This question has been raised due to a difference of opinion within another thread. As the thread was in a forum not meant to discuss theological issues between Christians, I have brought the discussion over here.

Essentially the two “theories” were as follows:

a) Every man is born body and soul only with no spirit.

b) Every man is born body, soul and spirit but the spirit is dead within.

I have endeavoured to take a look at what the Scriptures have to say. This is in no way exhaustive but is meant to be a base. I’m not a scholar and have only my God given brain, a Bible and a Strong’s concordance to work with. (I have used the Authorised Version in all references.) This is what I have found.

There are 174 references in the OT for the word “spirit”.
(note: SC*** = Strong’s Condordance No.)

1. (SC178) owb – from a word meaning father (used lit. or fig.)
:- familiar spirit
This word is used 7 times: Lev.20:27; 1Sam.28:7 & 8; 1Chr.10:13 & 2Chr.33:6 Is always translated “familiar spirit”.

2. (SC5397) neshamah – from a word meaning to blow (away) ie destroy
:-a puff (ie wind), angry or vital breath
This word is used twice: Job 26:4 & Prov.20:27

3. (SC7308) ruwach – Chaldean form of SC7307. (see next)
This word is used 8 times, all in Daniel 4:8,9 & 18; 5:11,12 & 14; 6:3 & 7:15

4. (SC7307) ruwach – from a word meaning to blow ie breath
:- wind (by resemblance breath); (fig) life, anger, unsubstantiality.
This word is used on all other occasions as per following example:
(s. = spirit)

S. of God Gen1:2
s. of Jacob Gen 45:27
s. of Elijah 2Kng. 2:15
s. of Pul 1Chr.5:26
s. of Cyrus Ezr.1:1
s. of Tilgarth-pilneser 1Chr.5:26
s. of Egypt Is.19:3
s. of judgment Is.4:4
s. of burning Is.4:4
s. of counsel Is.11:12
s. of knowledge Is.11:2
s. of jealousy Num.5:14
s. of the beast (animal) Ecc.3:21
s. of my understanding Job 20:33
evil s. Judg.9:23
different s. Num.14:24
sorrowful s. 1Sam.1:15
s. came again 1Sam.30:12
no more s. (in her) 1King 10:5
portion of s. 2Kng.2:9
anguish of s. Job 7:11
my s. drinketh up (poison) Job 6:4
preservation of s. Job 10:12
s. in man Job 32:8

This is but a small sample but I have tried to give a fair representation of its usage. As can be seen, if the word “spirit” is understood to be “the third part of man”, then it causes theological problems. We would have to believe animals and Nations have spirits or that it can be multiplied and given away. Even when looking at texts that speak of “my spirit” or “in man”, when read in context, spirit could just as easily be understood as “attitude” or “life principle” without loss of meaning.

Turning to the NT –

There are 260 references to the word “spirit” in the NT.
Of these:
135 refer to the Spirit of God and are denoted by a capital “S”
15 refer to unclean, foul or evil spirits.
4 speak of deaf & dumb spirit, spirit of divination or spirit of infirmity. (Of those three spirits, two were “cast out” the other was healed)
Of the remainder, some I noted were designated with a capital “S” in other bible versions. The rest when read in context could by seen as “attitude” - ie s. of bondage (Rom.8:15); s. of slumber (Rom.11:8); s. of the world (1Cor.2:12).
Whenever I came across a verse that could refer to an “actual spirit”, it was always in reference to a “believer”. (eg 1Cor.5:5 & 6:20)

My personal conclusion is that based on the above (ie looking only at the word spirit throughout Scripture) the question cannot be decided conclusively. We must therefore give consideration to the “big picture” as to what makes sense and what doesn’t.

The following are some quotes taken from the prior discussion with my responses:

I see people as being born with a spirit, soul and body, but the spirit is just in a dead state, like being born with two arms but one is in a dead state.

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If the arm was dead it would decay and rot away. No-one can be born with a dead arm.

Our spirit is how God communicates with us. If we were born without a spirit, we would never have the ability to perceive Him drawing us.

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Read 1Cor.2:14 and John 3:3
I suspect what you are referring to has to do with our soul and truth. Compare Gen.3:22 and Rom.1:25 I have to look at this further but at this stage I see a correlation between our “desire for truth” and our ability to “find God”.

At the time of rebirth, God again breathes the breath of Life into our inabled, dormant spirit much the same way He breathed life into Adam. The breath He breathes into us is the Holy Spirit

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This becomes a “catch 22” based on what you stated above. If our spirits are “dormant” we can’t hear God call. If He then breathed our spirits back to life, how surprised would we be?! It would be an instant shock, an instant awakening out of the blue, no gentle tugging here.

I dont know if that it's accurate to say Adam became dichotomous. Adam did not lose his spirit, it was simply separated from God.

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It’s true Adam didn’t misplace his spirit but is it correct to say “it was simply separated”? Adam’s spirit died. Fullstop, end of statement!

Everyone is born with a spirit, soul and body, but until they are born again, thier spirit is in them but in a dead state until they accept Jesus.

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When your body dies do you expect your family will leave it in place or will they take it away?

Gen. 6:3, And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Now why do you suppose the passage says "for that he also is flesh"? Man is not only flesh but spirit also. Since it's God's spirit that is in reference the passage has to mean the "also" makes reference to mans spirit, not soul.

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This verse has always bothered me because the God I know never gives up. Yet this is seemingly what He proposes to do. However, if God is looking at this from the perspective of what He originally intended (man spiritually alive) and comparing it to what He has (man spiritually dead), then He would give up in exactly the same way we would say “can’t argue with a dead man”. (of course there is even more happening in this passage that He did not intend) Given the context of the passage I don’t think we can use it as a teaching on the nature of man but rather the “predicament” that God has to deal with.

Comments anyone?

Genesis 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.

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Hi Dad Ernie,
Thanks for the input.
It's interesting that you should raise the issue regarding Pharaoh. I'm no expert on the subject but it's my understanding that the ancient Egyptians believed man to be comprised of body and soul only. They considered the heart (the actual organ) to be the receptacle of one's soul (thoughts, emotions, life principle) hence it was left in the body (during mummification) so that the soul could return to the body and this ensured the body of continued life. They believed the soul to be immortal. I think it safe to say that if you tried to convince the Pharaoh that he was made up of body, soul and spirit, he would not have had a clue as to what you were on about.

Genesis 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Here we see the two spirits. We say that the "spirit" of an unregenerate man is DEAD, but actually what it means is that "it is not alive to God", as Joseph's "spirit" was in vs. 38 above.

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Well this is the reason I did that study as I did. Whenever we see the word "spirit" in Scripture we automatically think of "an actual spirit" but it's not the case. The Hebrew word used means "breath" and can be used in the same sense as we would say "he has an adventurous spirit". This is not a reference to a man's actual spirit but his mental outlook, his general attitude to life. We speak of an "Aussie spirit" (being a downunder myself ) but this is a reference to the combined cultural outlook not that the country itself has "a spirit".
That Joseph was "alive to God" at this time is understandable but he would not have been born that way otherwise we make the Scriptures a liar. Rom3:23 "For all have sinned, all fall short of the Glory of God." and "the wages of sin is death" Rom.6:23
It seems to me we want to keep making out that death is somehow not death. That Adam's spirit "died" but it wasn't really dead, like when our bodies die and eventually decay to become no more, but it was still alive in some form of conciousness to everything but God. This just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, take a close look at King Saul and all the references to "spirit" that surrounded his life, i.e.:

1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

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This speaks nothing about Saul's spirit and I don't have a problem believing there are evil spirits. (ie spirit entities)

We might also conjecture about what is meant here regarding Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Is this not a "spirit" sent by God to keep Paul humble?

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I have read various arguments regarding what Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was. Again if it was an evil spirit, I don't have a problem.

take care

TasManOfGod said:

Here is an interesting passage on this subject


Luk 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
Luk 1:12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

Luk 1:40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


Perhaps this satisfies the question

blessing
Tas

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Hi Tas,

It might shed light if it spoke of John's spirit but it only speaks of the Holy Spirit.

take care

hotmetal said:

I've heard the view that we're not given a soul for 6weeks (or 6months, dont quote me). Its from a lady who is very wise in scripture, and spirit filled, but I have to admit I havent really seen scripture about it.

But Im deontologically against abortion.


God Bless, metal.

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Hi Metal,

Can't say I've ever heard that but unfortunately it doesn't help regarding a man's spirit. I certainly believe everyone living has a soul.
Also, I don't wish to be offensive but just because someone is filled with "spirit" and knows Scripture doesn't necessarily mean it's God's Spirit. If I was you I would ask for the Scriptures to support this view.

love and

nephilimiyr said:

Hi Sawdust!

I think unless you have gene become involved in this thread you'll find most here will agree with the fact that we're born with a spirit.

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LOL

Com'n my friend I expected to get a much better run for my money from you than this.

You know as well as I this can never be about one man's view of the Word. I'm not doing this to have people agree or disagree with me. I do it because I will settle for nothing less than the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. I don't want to be alone in the journey but the longer I live the more I realise very few are willing to wrestle with the Word unto death. (death of self that is)
Please don't leave me alone on this road now, I count you as a friend.

lots of love

Dad Ernie said:

Greetings Sawdust,

I hope I didn't give the impression that one's "spirit" is ONLY an abstract quality of their personality. I liked the reminder one poster gave about John the Baptist "leaping" in Elizabeth's womb when Mary entered into their home. JB had "life", that is the "soul", but it was a "spirit" that he had that prompted him "leaping".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

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Hi Ernie,

No you didn't give me that impression. Actually you gave me the opposite impression. ie That which should be understood as a mental outlook or attitude of soul is in fact one's spirit. (eg Pharaoh)
As for John the Baptist, I doubt if John was born without a human spirit. Why? Because Jesus said of John that "he was the greatest man to have ever been born." (Matt.11:11) John had a unique calling on his life, one that no man prior or since, would need to fill. When God calls us to a task, He never lets us undertake it without all that is necessary to fulfill it.

Please understand Ernie, I was not brought up in a Christian home. When I eventually came into the Church I heard a lot of things said that did not seem to fit in with what I had read in Scripture. I'm just trying to wrestle with the Truth.

Thanks and take care

TasManOfGod said:

Have you got new revelation as to where the Holy Spirit resides in us?

blssing
Tas

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No Tas, indeed if I came to you saying I had new revelation then you have more than my permission, I would demand of you to literally cut my tongue from my head.

This is not about the Holy Spirit this is about our spirit. God said that in the day Adam ate of the tree in the garden he would die. Now we know his body didn't die so we are taught his spirit died. That seems fair enough to me however when I ask what is dead I get things like "separated from God" or "spiritually comatosed". Now these sorts of conditions give me theological problems.
The first sense is a spirit that can relate to life other than God. Does that sound like what a dead spirit could do to you? Does a dead body relate to its grave or coffin but not the earth above it?
The other is if a comatosed body is still alive why should a comatosed spirit be dead and not alive.
I'm not trying to be argumentative or teach anything new, I'm just trying to understand what God has said to us.

blessings to you too

Hi All,

Rather than answer each individual point I thought I would do some "out loud thinking" otherwise the threads get too long.


I don't have a problem with a believer having a body, soul and spirit. (ie an alive to God spirit) but you all seem to be missing the point of my question.

We know in the beginning God made Adam body, soul and spirit but then Adam sinned and his spirit died. Lets imagine for a moment he never sinned. How would his children be born body, soul and spirit? I see two possible scenarios:

1. God creates the child's spirit in the same way he did Adam.
2. God created the spirit of man to reproduce in a similar manner as the body reproduces. (John 3:6?)

Let's assume for a moment that its no.2 and we have Adam sinning, hence his spirit dies. How now does a dead spirit reproduce?

Alterantively, lets say it's no.1. Adam sins, his spirit dies, but now when his children are born God is creating dead spirits in them? Don't you think God is working somewhat illogical here and defeating His own purposes?

Of course we might all be living in Never Never land and everytime someone claps their hands a human spirit is created!

This question is not about how the spirit works or it's purpose. The Church traditionally teaches we have inherited our sin from Adam, the Word confirms this. But when they start talking about how we inherited that legacy, I've yet to hear anything that doesn't go off into "woowoo land of mystical wand waving". Now I've been asking this question for a long time and had pretty much given up on getting a reasonable answer until someone said some things in another thread that made sense. Essentially that was, we are not born with a spirit, that's the legacy of Adam's sin we inherited.
Now as I've been writing this, I have remembered something that I had completely forgotten about. I was not raised with any Christian teaching. I started reading the Bible when I was about 12yo but apart from 6months of Sunday School around that time I had no other Christian input. When I read the Scriptures regarding being "dead in our sins", I must have unconciously assumed that meant "no spirit" within. It wasn't until I was involved in Church did I get the impression "we all have a spirit" because I remember now thinking on the difference back in my twenties.

So now, where does that all leave us. I appreciate all your input you've given me some other things to think about, but so far, I haven't got any clear Scriptual definition from any of you saying how we can be born with a dead spirit inside us. (because that is what you are all saying but no-one is showing from scripture 'how it is so')

As I said before, I'm not trying to start arguments or teach anything new, I'm just trying to learn. If you can't show me from the Scriptures how we can inherit a "dead" spirit, then I have to assume we have "no" spirit and that when God says "dead", He means as in "dead, buried, gone" in a similar way as the body dies, is buried and is gone, no more, vanished. And just so no-one starts prattling about how the "body is one thing and the spirit another", let me remind you just how often Jesus used the physical world to speak of spritual truths. Therefore I have to believe there is a similarity between the two.

Now I know I'm most probably sounding rather "picky" but I take the study of the Word very seriously therfore human opinion doesn't hold much sway with me. It's not that I don't listen to what others say, I listen very closely in fact, but it's because I listen with "both ears" that I hear a lot that doesn't bear out according to Scripture. (not when the Word is taken as a whole)

I'm just not prepared to accept "gap theology" and so far that's all I've been given. I hope you all can understand that.

love and hugs