Is it possible to negotiate with Iran?

Driver · Jul 28, 2006

It is the Sunburn's supersonic speed (2.1 mach), low-flying, and maneuvering cababilities that makes it so formidable. An article on the Russian- made Sunburn missile:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7147.htm

The Sunburn can deliver a 200-kiloton nuclear payload, or: a 750-pound conventional warhead, within a range of 100 miles, more than twice the range of the Exocet. The Sunburn combines a Mach 2.1 speed (two times the speed of sound) with a flight pattern that hugs the deck and includes “violent end maneuvers” to elude enemy defenses.

The missile was specifically designed to defeat the US Aegis radar defense system. Should a US Navy Phalanx point defense somehow manage to detect an incoming Sunburn missile, the system has only seconds to calculate a fire solution –– not enough time to take out the intruding missile.

Let us pray that the US sailors who are unlucky enough to be on duty in the Persian Gulf when the shooting starts can escape the fate of the Roman army at Cannae. The odds will be heavily against them, however, because they will face the same type of danger, tantamount to envelopment. The US ships in the Gulf will already have come within range of the Sunburn missiles and the even more-advanced SS-NX-26 Yakhonts missiles, also Russian-made (speed: Mach 2.9; range: 180 miles) deployed by the Iranians along the Gulf’s northern shore. Every US ship will be exposed and vulnerable. When the Iranians spring the trap, the entire lake will become a killing field.

romanov · Jul 30, 2006

Driver said:
It is the Sunburn's supersonic speed (2.1 mach), low-flying, and maneuvering cababilities that makes it so formidable. An article on the Russian- made Sunburn missile:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7147.htm
The Sunburn can deliver a 200-kiloton nuclear payload, or: a 750-pound conventional warhead, within a range of 100 miles, more than twice the range of the Exocet. The Sunburn combines a Mach 2.1 speed (two times the speed of sound) with a flight pattern that hugs the deck and includes “violent end maneuvers” to elude enemy defenses.

The missile was specifically designed to defeat the US Aegis radar defense system. Should a US Navy Phalanx point defense somehow manage to detect an incoming Sunburn missile, the system has only seconds to calculate a fire solution –– not enough time to take out the intruding missile.

Let us pray that the US sailors who are unlucky enough to be on duty in the Persian Gulf when the shooting starts can escape the fate of the Roman army at Cannae. The odds will be heavily against them, however, because they will face the same type of danger, tantamount to envelopment. The US ships in the Gulf will already have come within range of the Sunburn missiles and the even more-advanced SS-NX-26 Yakhonts missiles, also Russian-made (speed: Mach 2.9; range: 180 miles) deployed by the Iranians along the Gulf’s northern shore. Every US ship will be exposed and vulnerable. When the Iranians spring the trap, the entire lake will become a killing field.

Mexican American war, Mexicans had a better trained army, a better equipped army. Oh my, we're gonna lose!

We won!

Spanish American war. Oh my, the Spanish navy is better equipped, more modern. Oh my, We're gonna lose.

We won!

Oh my, the Germans have the Maxim gun and submarines. Oh my, we're gonna lose.

We won!

Oh my, the Germans have much better tanks, blitzkreig warfare, better submarines, highly trained veteran army and their fighter pilots are without peer. Oh my, we're gonna lose.

We won!

Korean war. Oh my, the Chinese have more men. We're gonna lose.

We should have won. But the UN didn't want us to.

Vietnam. Oh my, we stink, we're horrible, we're losers, our men are drug addicts, I have an infection on my big toe. We're gonna lose.

We should have won. But the UN, the US media, and communist academics didn't want us to.

Grenada. Oh my, we stink...you get the picture.

We won!

Gulf war I. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Mother of all battles, blah, blah. Saddam Hussein is a military genius, blah, blah, blah...

We won!

War on terror. Bush stinks. Oh and by the way Bush stinks. And did I mention Bush stinks. Kerry's brilliant and if he was in office then every thing would be great wonderful and terrific and Heinz Ketchup would be half price. And did you know, John Kerry won 3 Purple Hearts in Vietnam? Oh and did you hear the latest about how bad Bush stinks?

Bottom line, sunburn missiles may be an issue but the Navy doesn't want to lose it's new ships. I'd be willing to bet that you don't know everything about the Navy's capabilities.

The question is, can we negotiate and trust Iran to keep their word? Not how great and wonderful Sunburn Missiles are. We all know that everything the US military does is over budget, doesn't work, is a piece of junk and the US military's top brass stinks. Oh and by the way, Bush stinks too.

PS I forgot the latest news flash from Moveon.org. Bush stinks and the USA stinks. America is bad. We're evil and Bush stinks.

romanov · Jul 30, 2006

applepowerpc said:
Of course it's possible to negotiate with Iran. The Iranian president wrote a lengthy, perfectly reasonable letter to our President, the full text of which is readily available online.

Condoleeza Rice wadded it up and...two points!

Could you give me a link to that please?

romanov · Jul 30, 2006

Poke said:
Bush demands that you totally cave, as a condition to even start negotiations. Bush is demanding that Iran give up their legal rights before he'll negotiate. That, of course, is a ploy to refuse to negotiate in the first place. And, even if Iran gave up their legal rights to have a neclear energy program, Bush would still refuse to negotiate, saying that Iran is lying (ala when liar Bush said Saddam was hiding WMDs).

Bush openly refuses to negotiate, so it's kind of stupid for anyone to blame Iran for refusing to negotiate.

Yes, and at this rate, it's just a matter of time before Israel is destroyed. That will close a dark chapter in world history and send the zionists back to the drawing board.

The US ships have defenses. And, Iran would probably hold back, not wanting to p*ss-off the school yard bully. The US isn't going to attack Iran because the US has no international support to do so, and the US has its hands full with Iraq. At most, the US/Israel axis of evil would bomb just a few select targets in Iran to try to intimidate Iran. But, even that would be costly to the US just in terms of the oil price spike that would result.

Not to someone who belongs to the father of lies, who was a murderer from the beginning.

Ok, could you answer the question so we can move on. Do you consider it a mercy killing to exterminate mentally ill people? This is yes or no. If the answer is yes, we can move forward. If the answer is no, why did you say it?

Driver · Jul 30, 2006

romanov said:
Bottom line, sunburn missiles may be an issue but the Navy doesn't want to lose it's new ships. I'd be willing to bet that you don't know everything about the Navy's capabilities.

Navy Hymn

Yes, and they have a long memory. The Office of Naval Intelligence was targeted at the Pentagon on 9/11 and there were so many Navy guys on Flight 77.

While keeping an eye on Iran, I'm sure they are keeping an even closer eye on Israel. They haven't forgotten about Israel's attack on the USS Liberty in 1967 or of the mysterious circumstances involving the USS Cole in 2000 or of the mysterious death of the FBI's lead investigator into the USS Cole, John O'Neill, in the World Trade Center, 9/11.

Easystreet · Jul 30, 2006

Quoting this and that really does not matter. Overall, the underlying belief system of Islam is the real culprit.

You can not negotiate with a religion that teaches "hate", "murder", and "wipe" all Jews and Christians off the face of the earth.

Satan is crafty. He uses all sorts of people and movements to accomplish his end. Islam is the number one Satanic religion in the world. But, do not kid yourself, any philosophy, religion, movement, secular or religious not in agreement with Christ and the Inspired Holy Bible will not work to solve any problem that is lasting.

Any break or lull in activity is only a temporary peace and is false.

Israel pulled out of Lebanon, The UN was supposed to oversee the dismantling of the Islamic Demonic terrorist and see to it that Lebanon's army be in control.

What happened? Nothing. Islam is the issue. Fanatic, radical, demonic Islam will always be the problem.

It is a spiritual war not physical war. Yet the war is played out in the physical realm. People are pawns for the Devil scheme of things. As long as the majority of People are lost and going to hell they will not follow sound Christians Teaching.

Many in the Church are lost and this is why you have a movement in the "Earthly Church" that support this Islamic Demonic religion, because they are not real born a gain Christians. The are only Christians in thinking and not in New Birth, Spiritual Birth..

Step back and see things from the spiritual warfare side of things and you will see the real fight.

All this is going to get worse, all-be-it, there may be a lull in actions here and there. Don't kid yourself into believing this will go away, because it won't.

Yes, it will end when Christ comes back at the Second coming. Until them things will lead up to the Rapture, a false 3 and 1/2 years of peace for Israel and the whole world will be cast into a 3 and ½ year of Hell on Earth, the great tribulation, Jacob’s Trouble. God will complete his punishment on the House of Israel and all Un-godly nations at that time.

During Jacobs Trouble 4/5 of all the population will die. Now that is a real tribulation, unlike any before.

It is coming. Scripture teaches this.

What are we as Christians to do.

Witness, share the Gospel with all peoples, Jews, Muslims, Everyone.

They will hate you and many Real Believers will be killed. But the love of Christ constrains us - we must continue to witness and win as many to Christ as possible. Our goal as believers regardless of weather you agree with me or not is to spread the Gospel of Christ to all.

All are sinners, All need Christ for Salvation and to get to Heaven. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. All other ways, religions, philosophies, beliefs are false, and serve Satan's purpose of misleading people away from God to death and Hell.

Love Always Finds A Way

Negotiation is Impossible with the Enemy Satan, and Islam is his number one religion at this time in history.

Islamic People Need Christ. Until they have Christ there will never be any real peace.

Real Peace is coming, Jesus will be King and David will be there with Jesus, All real born again believers who where rapture out and are coming back with Christ will rule and reign with Him for the 1000 years.

Are you ready? Do you know Christ for real? Do you have a real personal relationship with Jesus?

He loves you and wants you to know him in the most personal way. He died for you and me and all sinners everywhere.

God Bless

Gordon

Easystreet · Jul 30, 2006

Poke said:
The Koran's criminal laws are based on the laws found in Hebrew scriptures. The Koran does not say that people who leave Islam should be punished. But, yes, Iran and US allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan forbid conversion from Islam. But, other Islamic countries allow conversion from Islam.

What a coincidence. That guy is Judaism's god, as well.

Love you Poke,

All lost people are Lost. Jews, Arabs, Moslems, English, US citizens and on and on.

Now that this is established. The teaching that Islam uses from he Old Testament are fine but they are corrupted and twisted to meet the thinking of a false prophet Mohammad.

If we know our Bibles correctly we can see the clear difference between the spirit of Islam and Real Christianity.

Satan uses scripture to his advantage. Having a fake bible like the Koran is a work of Satan. Satan every quoted Scripture to Christ.

I hope you can see this. It is a fundamental understanding for Real Born A Gain Believers. All believers having the Spirit of God in them will understand this.

You and I should not be at odds on this issue. If we are both saved you and I should agree that Islam is not right, not good, satanic, evil, hateful, and so on.

The only truth is God's Holy Word the Bible which consists of 66 books period.

Are we in sink here or do you even disagree with this fundamental issue.

My dear friend, we don't have to agree on all theological issues but when it comes to the issue of the lost and saved and the evil forces in the world we should be on the same page.

What is your first love? Do you love to get alone and sign to God in the Name of Jesus, Pray to God in the Name of Jesus, read your Bible daily, and willfully choose to walk a pure, obedient life each day? Are we in agreement here? Can we have fellowship in this very understanding of walking in the Spirit. Do you long for purity in your life and a close walk with Jesus. You know the song “Just a Closer Walk With Jesus” is this your deep heart felt desire and passion?

Being in Christ means all things have become New. When you became a Believer did all things become New? Have you experience this life changing conversion? Does Christ have a grip on your soul and do you long to see Him and go to be with Him even this very moment in time? Had you rather be with Jesus now instead of where you are? If not you need to question your salvation? The scripture tells us to examine ourselves in light of what the word teaches. What does the word teach? Love God with all your hear, mind and soul. Do you long for Jesus to come? I do. Yes, we all would like to some extent hold on but in our hear of hearts and For Real, I would love to be with Jesus. I hope the Rapture is today, and if you don’t believe that way then the Second Coming. Come Lord Jesus Come.

I love you and I hope this Christ centered appeal lands on fertile ground. I am not your enemy. I love a good theological argument in the spirit of true searching, but there are fundamental things that should not be any different between any real born again believer and that is the real personal walk with Jesus and the Spiritual awareness of what is right and wrong.

The bible clearly tells us we are in a spiritual war and it is being played out in the history of mankind and movements.

God Bless

Love Always Finds A Way

Easystreet · Jul 30, 2006

There is only one God. There is only one true Scripture, The 66 Books of the Holy Bible. All other gods and bibles are false regardless of how much "truth" they contain.

Satan is a master at taking "truth" and mixing it with error and publishing it in all forms of books, and religious bibles.

There is only one proven Holy Bible and that is the one we have with 66 books. All others are contaminated and have false teaching, corruption, added false books, and so on.

The Bible is our guide to truth. Let if fill your soul and heart. Forget about all the non-sense in those false gospels, religions, and secular books in the world.

Read them to understand the enemy but only trust in the Holy Bible the only Holy Bible consisting of 66 book period.

Driver · Jul 30, 2006

GordonSlocum said:
Satan uses scripture to his advantage. Having a fake bible like the Koran is a work of Satan. Satan every quoted Scripture to Christ.

Do you believe that Satan could have influenced some of Scofield's footnotes, the ones which dispensationalists follow?

http://www.historicist.com/hw.htm

http://www.911-strike.com/christian-zionists.htm

romanov · Jul 31, 2006

Ok, I've given Poke ample time to clarify his statement and he's refused to respond. That tells me he either said something out of turn and is embarrassed by it. He said it to be provocative and didn't really mean it. Or he actually believes it.

I am not trying to bait Poke. I want him to answer the question because it gets to why we can't negotiate with Iran. I don't think Poke really believes that mentally ill people should be executed simply because they are mentally ill and it is a form of mercy killing. But what about people who do? What kind of society would hang a 16 year old girl for having a sharp tongue? Can you look at your daughters or sisters and say to yourself that you would allow her to be hung because she has a sharp tongue?

This is a society that has no compassion and mercy. These are the types of people who will hide rockets in a school yard, bomb pizza parlors and kill anyone who gets in the way of their perfect society. So what happens when they get the nuclear bomb? What happens when they get their missiles to travel 3 or 4 thousand miles? Do you actually believe that people like this wouldn't use them?

Some folks in this thread are mad about Israel, because Israel even exists. They seem to take the stand that if we just leave them alone, don't make them mad, don't provoke them; they will leave us alone. They probably proclaim that if we just respect the Muslims and destroy Israel that we can have peace in our time. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Islamofacist Muslims have stated over and over again what they are angry about.

They are angry about the Israeli state. They are angry about the supposed about the supposed war crimes of Israel and they are angry about the US support of Israel. But they also state that they are angry about the crusades. They are angry about El Cid. They are angry about not being able to conquer Europe. Finally they are angry about the fact that the world doesn't want to live under Sharia law and until they have their way, they will use every weapon at their disposal to conquer us. They will negotiate cease fires to give them time to regroup. They will hide their weapons amongst women and children. And if they ever get Nukes they will use them.

Easystreet · Aug 1, 2006

Driver said:
Do you believe that Satan could have influenced some of Scofield's footnotes, the ones which dispensationalists follow?

http://www.historicist.com/hw.htm

http://www.911-strike.com/christian-zionists.htm

.
Some people will go to the ends of the earth to prove their point. I suspect you might be very close to falling off that end.

The last time I checked all the Christians that I Know, a bunch, their Scofield Bibles have not inspired them to send their Children to commit suicide, or tell them that their heaven is make up of 70 virgins just waiting to satisfy all their sexual cravings.

It takes a warped mind to support the hideous teaching of Islam. The God that I serve speaks of Holiness and Purity.

No other religion on the face of the earth today teaches their children to commit suicide or that that will have 70 virgins in heaven if they commit suicide.

The poor women of Islam. Do they have 70 male virgins for them?

Islam is sick, demonic, and totally anti Christ.

applepowerpc · Aug 1, 2006

The last time I checked all the Christians that I Know, a bunch, their Schfield Bibles have not inspired them to send their Children to commith suicide

Scofield's "study notes" did, indirectly, inspire the Palestinian Arabs to send their children to commit suicide. It set off a chain of events that resulted in that.

Regardless, "Christian" nations have sent their children off to sure suicide before. Trench warfare in WWI and Russian "human waves" in WW2 are two examples.

romanov · Aug 2, 2006

applepowerpc said:
Scofield's "study notes" did, indirectly, inspire the Palestinian Arabs to send their children to commit suicide. It set off a chain of events that resulted in that.

I'm not assuming that all Palestinians are Muslim. I still would venture a guess that not too many of them have ever read Scofield's study notes on the Bible. I'm not an expert on what Palestinians study but it seems odd to me they would be influenced by the Bible.

applepowerpc said:
Regardless, "Christian" nations have sent their children off to sure suicide before. Trench warfare in WWI and Russian "human waves" in WW2 are two examples.

V I Lenin worked long and hard to make sure that the Soviet Union wasn't a Christian anything. Yet many Russians were still Christians during WWII. And I wouldn't say that these Christians sent their children into suicide missions. Much like they didn't have much choice in where they lived and what they ate, there wasn't a whole lot of choice in whether or not they would serve in the military.

The "Human waves" that you speak of, where hundreds of Russians charged the enemy tanks and machine guns, they didn't have a whole lot of choice in that either. If they didn't charge, they were shot by the Russians. And if they tried to retreat in the face of overwhelming odds, the Russians had a way of motivating them by machine gunning them down.

Even still, I don't recall ever seeing any enlistment posters that are WWI/WWII vintage with young children wearing suicide vests. I've seen "Palestinians" protesting the streets of Germany, France, Lebanon and other places carrying their children on their shoulders and the children are wearing mock suicide vests.

Driver · Aug 2, 2006

romanov said:
I'm not assuming that all Palestinians are Muslim. I still would venture a guess that not too many of them have ever read Scofield's study notes on the Bible. I'm not an expert on what Palestinians study but it seems odd to me they would be influenced by the Bible.

The reinterpretation of the Bible, based on Scofield's notes, led Dispensationalists to their seeing "prophecies fulfilled" in the Zionist movement and the establishment of the State of Israel. Some begain to politicize their theology and actively encouraged Jews to settle in Palestine. The Palestinians viewed their political stances as becaming more and more biased towards the Israelis, to the detriment of the Palestinians.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

Easystreet · Aug 2, 2006

Driver said:
The reinterpretation of the Bible, based on Scofield's notes, led Dispensationalists to their seeing "prophecies fulfilled" in the Zionist movement and the establishment of the State of Israel. Some begain to politicize their theology and actively encouraged Jews to settle in Palestine. The Palestinians viewed their political stances as becaming more and more biased towards the Israelis, to the detriment of the Palestinians.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

Hi Driver,

You are a true blue Covenant believer. You statement is true in one respect. The part about re-interpretation of the Bible we would disagree on as I know you understand.

The issue for those of us on the Dispensational side of Theology is that we see our view as purely Biblical and so do you. That is an impasse.

I have made this statement somewhere else concerning my firm belief on the Dispensational approach to understanding the Scripture, that it is the only theology that consistently interprets the total Bible. The Covenant theology never deals adequately with Prophecy. When the Scripture speaks clearly and plainly on prophetic issues Covenant theology heads in a different direction, whereas Dispensational Theology head in the direction of what is actually said if that genre warrants that in the particular text at hand.

Words like "Dispensation" "Covenant" are charged words that foster a wide verity of emotions in those that hold to either side. I don't see that changing anytime soon or ever for that matter. I believe you clearly understand my point.

I use to have my well thought out schemes on Covenant theology when I was in that camp. It was fun, but I was always dogged with the lack of consistency in the prophetic arena.

The interesting thing is when we look at the prophetic passages predicting what is happening now, so many chose to ignore it finding away to spiritualize the passage or find a second meaning beneath the clearly stated intent and understanding. I prefer to accept the statement as is when there is not indication of an alternative understanding within the text, context.

I would say most if not close to all theologians who are true believers on both the Covenant and Dispensational side agree that the prophecies concern the first advent are all fulfilled literally. The parting of the way is the prophetic passages concerning the second coming. You, I know, are aware of this fundamental difference.

That being the case I personally side with what I have already said and with the pattern that would make since that if the first advent was literal then the prophecies of the second advent and those leading up to it are also literal.

In churches where covenant theology is the menu of the pastor and perhaps the deacons and elders if that church has elders the tendency to avoid prophecy is extremely high. Also pastors in this category tent to preach more form the synoptic gospels and old testament and shy away from the epistles.

This may catch you by surprise but my pastor is a covenant believer. I told folk in my SS class one day that he was. Several understood a little about what I mint but the rest did not have a clue. I told them I knew because of the why and places he preached from.

The following Sunday the pastor basically stated from the pulpit that he was just that. I look at my fellow class mates and grinned. He loves the Lord and does not make Eschatology an issue. Many in this Southern Baptist Church are Dispensational but the focus of this particular congregation is not in the prophetic category all be it some parts are, they stick very close to the bacis Southern Baptist Literature.

Any way. I think in the same vain as the Friends of Israel think, Jerry Falwell, Erwin W Lutzer, Tony Evens, Charles Swindall, David Jeremiah, Charles Ryrie, Norman Giesler, John Walvoord, and many more great men of God who rightly divide the word of God.

The long standing Covenant Theological position held by the majority of "professing believers" world wide is simply a position of error. This was and still is the position of the majority of Liberal believers world wide. Not to say some in this camp are conservative but misguided. The majority are very liberal and out in left field. If we tool all Covenant Believers world wide the vast majority would be liberal in most categories. Many are only social gospel religionist professing to be Christians, never having had a real personal relationship with Christ.

Dispensational Theology lends itself to following the daily principles of the Christian walk because we don't try to reason away its real meaning and then we in a much larger way apply those principles to our lives. Note that I do understand that there are of the millions in the Covenant real, not many, that are true believers, but as one moves to the dispensational thinking we find more sold out to Christ Believers.

God Bless

Love Always Finds A Way

God Bless

Love Always Finds A Way

Easystreet · Aug 2, 2006

The real test is what the Bible says. All sides of theology can pull from here and there and quote this person and that person to no a vile.

What really matters in the end is what the Bible says and what is.

The question is: "What is?"

What is - is that prophecy is being fulfilled regardless of what anyone thinks. It is here before us in plane sight. It is either going to be rejected or accepted.

I chose to accept what the Bible says regardless of the endless laundry list of all points of view that can accept the clear teaching of God's word.

God said the "heavenly host" moon, sun etc. would not ceased to be and if they did then Israel would then cease to be a nation before God.

You know God said this not me or anyone reading this post. Why not accept it? That is what I do and all believers who interpret the Scripture correctly.

Love Everyone

God Bless

Friendlyneighbor101 · Aug 2, 2006

I believe the modern people who follow the Koran are average people who live normal life. It's the minorty that you must worry about in any population. You can say the same thing about christians, their have been people that are insane and claimed "God told them to do it" It just depends what side of the fence you are on and who you defending.

*Personally I would much rather Islam to respect, Christian and Jewish beliefs and stop attacking cities. (again I am talking about a minorty which may not always seem that way)

stone · Aug 2, 2006

Iran is an instrument of satan

Poke · Aug 2, 2006

stone said:
Iran is an instrument of satan

But, it's Israel that sits at Satan's right hand.

stone · Aug 2, 2006

Poke said:
But, it's Israel that sits at Satan's right hand.

no, that is you who sits with satan

Is it possible to negotiate with Iran?

Is Iran the least bit civilised

yes

no

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