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Is it Orthodox to believe in God directed evolution?

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Prawnik

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I have a question: does anyone here know whether there is a reference in the Church Fathers to the sun revolving around the earth? I know that Luther condemned Copernicus (a Catholic priest) for his heliocentric theory, and the Renaissance-era Catholic Church condemned Galileo for the same, because the theory seemingly contradicted the Biblical narrative where Joshua commanded the sun to stand still in the heavens.

Presumably the Church Fathers also believed that the sun revolves around the earth, as taught by Ptolemy, because that was a standard part of a classical education in those days, but does anyone have a text which can confirm or deny this?
 
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Matthew777

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Well, back to the evolution issue. I understand that there is a range within the church concerning creation vs. evolution but perhaps I would classify myself as an Orthodox "fundamentalist". If Genesis were incorrect, I am faithful that God would have revealed this to the fathers. Evolution was not new to Darwin, and the fathers confronted it even in their day.
It would be better to believe that truth which God has already given to us than to conform to the theory of naturalistic metaphysicians.
I, for one, was an evolutionist until I concerned myself with what the fathers actually taught.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
 
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Rilian

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I’m not aware of anything that says belief in a literal six days creation or a specific dating of the age of the earth based on biblical chronologies are articles of faith within Orthodoxy. I know many Fathers held these beliefs, and some did not. I’m not sure if there was any overriding consensus view within the church one way or the other at any time. I know of nothing the councils proclaimed in this regard other than one must believe in creation ex nihilo.

I do that some aspects of this have been problematic, especially using the chronologies and day-age theories to calculate the return of Christ. That was a problem then, and is now. My priest says the greatest trap that contemporary conservative Protestantism has fallen in to is literal interpretation of events at both ends of the Bible, i.e. Genesis and Revelation.

Evolution itself is I think a different story. I assume what people mean when they use this term is modern synthesis type evolution or neo-Darwinism (i.e. the combination of Darwinian natural selection and Mendelian genetics). I think over time and even now we will see significant cracks appear in it, and not because of religious belief but because there are major scientific criticisms of it. It won’t go without a fight however, as it has entrenched itself as a dogma as deeply held as any produced by revealed religion.
 
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Prawnik

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With all due respect, I think that answering the question "did the Church Fathers teach/believe in a helicentric or a Copernican cosmos?" is relevant to the issue of whether or not the Church Fathers' opinions on what we call the natural sciences are to be taken as authoritative.

As Rilian points out, there are a lot of holes in the theory of evolution as currently taught, however many people treat it is a matter of faith. But I do not think many people now seriously question the idea that the earth revolves around the sun.
 
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Matthew777

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Genesis and Early Man

The Orthodox Patristic Understanding

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/evolution_frseraphim_kalomiros.aspx

Why an Orthodox Christian cannot be an evolutionist
www.creatio.orthodoxy.ru/sbornik/sbufeev_whynot_english.html

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
 
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Prawnik

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That is fine, but those are opinions, learned opinions, opinions of persons whose faith far exceeds than mine perhaps, but still opinions. They are not mandatory for Orthodox Christians; even the Church Fathers are not infallible. Some Orthodox writers have accepted evolution, some have not.

I am not aware of any Church canon which declares belief in a literal six-day creation to be mandatory for all Orthodox Christians. Perhaps such a canon exists. If it does, I stand corrected.
 
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Matthew777

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The testimony of the fathers is not mere opinion; their consensus is the truest interpretation of Scripture.

As for geocentrism, consider relativity:
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-253.htm


May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
 
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countrymouse33ad

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Just to make this interesting...

Prawnik, I read your question about heliocentricity - a good question - and got out my copy of Bercott's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs (Hendrickson Publishers, 1998)

I don't know whether I'll find anything directly answering that question, but here are some interesting findings.

Article: Days of Creation, p.189

In the day that they did eat, in the same day did they die, and became death's debtors. For it was one day of the creation. It is said, "There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day." Now in this same day that they did eat, in that day they also died... From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that same day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Irenaeus 1.551 (ANF)

No man can give a sufficient explanation of this six days' work, nor can he describe all of its parts. He could not do this even if he had ten thousand tongues. Theophilus ANF 2.99.

Victorinus and Methodius affirm that God made the world in six days, but since the quotes are lifted from their contexts, it is not evident what they mean by "days."

From the article, "Evolution" pp. 264-267

Origen - Celsus harbors a secret desire to discredit the Mosaic account of the Creation. It teaches that the world is not yet ten thousand years old, but, in fact, is very much under that.

Here's evidence that materialistic evolutionary theory did not originate with Darwin:

Dionysius of Alexandria: Who can bear to hear it said that this mighty habitation, which is composed of heaven and earth and is called the "cosmos,"... was established in all its order and beauty by those atoms that hold their course - devoid of order and beauty? Or, that this same state of disorder has grown into this true cosmos of order?

And their are several other entries that address the question of materialistic evolution.

Lactantius: Some unbelievers say that the first men spent a nomadic life among th woods and plains. Men were not united by any mutual bond of speech and justice. They had leaves and grass for their beds, and they used caves and grottos for their dwellings. Furthermore, they were prey to the beasts and stronger animals. ... O minds unworthy of men, which produced these foolish trifles! ...


Now, as to the argument that we must rely on the Fathers. In the article "Cosmetics," the ante-Nicene Fathers speak as one voice in condemning the habit of wearing makeup and fine jewelry. I'm not kidding, here is what they say:

Clement of Alexandria - What should be said about the love of gems, exquisite working of gold, ... of artificial hair and wreathed curls? Furthermore, what should be said about staining the eyes, plucking out the hairs, painting with rouge and white lead, dyeing of the hair, and the wicked arts that are employed in such deceptions?

Tertullian - For those women sin against God when they rub their skin with ointments, stain their cheeks with rouge, and make their eyes prominent with antimony.

Hyppolytus - "Now Suzannah was a very delicate woman." This does not mean that she had flashy adornments on herself or eyes painted with various colors - as Jezebel had. Rather, it means she had the adornment of faith, chastity, and sanctity.

Novatian - She is not a modest woman who strives to stir up the fancy of another - even though her physical chastity is preserved. Away with those who do not really adorn their beauty, but prostitute it instead.

Commodianus - Moreover, with evil purpose you pout on false cosmetics. ... But these things are not necessary for the modest woman.

Cyprian - All these things the sinning and apostate angels put forth by their arts, when, lowered to the contagions of earth, they forsook their heavenly vigor. They also taught women to paint the eyes with blackness drawn around them in a circle and to stain the cheeks with a deceitful red.

There is not one varying opinion recorded on this matter, or on the matter of:

Article: "Veil" pp. 666 (oh, dear!) - 667

Clement of Alexandria - It has also been commanded that the head should be veiled and the face covered. For it is a wicked thing for beauty to be a snare to men.

For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled.

"Because of the angels." By the "angels" he means righteous and virtuous men. Let her be veiled, then, so that she may not lead them to stumble into fornication. For the real angels in heaven see her, even though she is veiled.

Tertullian - That matter must now be dealt with that is inconsistently observed throughout the churches. [Whether or not virgins should be veiled] ... Are virgins incapable of of excelling in beauty and finding lovers? ... Why do you uncover before God what you cover before men? Will you be more modest in the village than in the church?

Point is that the Church does not consistently hold us to either one of these practices today, even though the earliest Fathers adress the former, and the Scriptures themselves, as well as these two Fathers, address the latter. Yes, I know that Tertullian taught some false things, but Bercott stated that he was careful to leave them out or note them where he felt they must be included for historicity's sake.

The Church also does not seem to prescribe or dictate one particular view of creation, other than that we must affirm that it is God who has created it all. My priest is very, very well-educated in the Orthodox Faith, in Holy Tradition, and the fact that he does not seem to see a definite consensus among the Fathers on the matter of interpreting Genesis, then I shall remain skeptical until I have had the opportunity to examine it for myself. Frankly, I have so much to do simply to battle my sinfulness, that this is just not on my front burner.

What Holy Tradition requires us to believe about interpreting these things is, imho, simply beyond the scope of what we can acheive in a forum discussion.


*******

Regarding the objection that speciation would contradict the Genesis claim that living things reproduce "after their own kind" - Speciation is the product of many steps of variational changes over multiple generations. Evolutionary theory does not nor has it ever claimed that cats give birth to chickens, or any such thing. Speciation does not violate reproduction after kind, and it has been observed in laboratory settings. Just some fyi in case you're arguing with materialists, so you don't come off looking silly.
 
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Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

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Very wise, Brad. I can feel the presence of St. Seraphim in your words.
 
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Rilian

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I'm not sure why you quoted this in reply to me, as I'm in no way advocating a position (Darwinism, neo-Darwinism) that I don't personally adhere to. I've read the Fr. Rose piece before, and like the other things I've read by him I agree with some of what he says and disagree with other points.

I would recommend if you're really interested in this subject looking at Touchstone's archives as they've featured several articles critical of modern Darwinian science and philosophy. Phillip E. Johnson, who wrote the introduction to Fr. Rose's book, is a regular contributor there.
 
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Xpycoctomos

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countrymouse33ad said:
I don't think we're debating whether Genesis is true or not, just discussing how it is to be understood.

thank you. If we follow the thought that "Genesis isn't true if you don't take it literally word for word" then I suppose we would have to condemn Church fathers that said that "day" was only symbolic of a time period. Of course not. Whether it's literal or not has not real implications on my faith or relationship with God. What it is saying at a deeper level does indeed have an effect on my spiritual life. I will concern myself with the later rather than assuming the OT Fathers were writing a classroom science book.
 
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Matthew777

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Xpycoctomos said:
I will concern myself with the later rather than assuming the OT Fathers were writing a classroom science book.

St Theophanus the Recluse wrote: "The positive teaching of the Church serves to know whether a concept is from the Truth. This is a litmus test for all teachings. Whatever agrees with it, you should accept it, whatever does not- - reject. One can do it without further deliberations". "Science goes forward fast, let it do so. But if they infer something inconsistent with the Divine Revelation, they are definitely off the right path in life, do not follow them". "Believers have the right to measure the material things with spiritual ones, when materialists get into the realm of the spiritual without a slightest scruple... We have wisdom as our partner, while theirs is foolishness. Material things can be neither the power nor the purpose. They are just the means and the field of activity of spiritual powers by the action of the spiritual beginning of all things (Creator)"

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
 
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Xpycoctomos

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Exactly
 
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Xpycoctomos

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True, I just don't think there is A definitive dogmatic teaching of the Church on this. I have no problem with any quotes youve posted. The last especially didn't go against anything I've said. I'm not even sure that it necessarily applies to this discussion. "Divine Revelation" is a term I would use losely. Just because a Church Father said it doesn't make it Divine revelation. Also, the divine revelation may not be the literal facts but the meaning below and beyond the words (ie... wasn't about literal 6 dyas or a type of fruit that was evil but rather our relationship with God destroyed by our own pride and the fact that our sin is not just personal but it effects the entire human race and generations to come to some degree).

I don't feel I am any less Orthodox for not taking my Bible into Science Class. I'll leave the number of galazies and stars in the universe to the scientists with big telescopes and university degrees. Similarily I will leave the state of my soul and relationship with God to Holy people with big hearts for God and who produce fruit of the Spirit.

I'm mostly concerned with what you do with the latter (which I sure you do well). Whether you agree with me or not... it really doesn't matter to me.

John

I'm done with this thread. It's not frustrating me... nor are you or anyone else. But it is simply not important to me (just interesting) and I'm afraid I will start just arguing to argue (I'm good at that).
 
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Matthew777

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When men speculate on science that contradicts divine truth, then they've halted the practice of true science.

And if you are interested in what the church fathers had to say on the nature of the Garden of Eden, read Genesis and Early Man. I know I've plugged it enough.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
 
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Dust and Ashes

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Matthew777 said:
One's view of origins influences one's faith and world outlook.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.

Of course it does. I vehemently hold to the view that God created the universe from nothing and that He is personally responsible for the creation and arrangement of every atom in everything that exists. I just don't worry about the details anymore as, at this point, there is no way to know those details for certain.
 
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