is it okay for a christian to practice trances?

PassionateChemistry · May 30, 2005

is it okay for a christian to practice trances? Peter and Paul had trances in the bible

Scholar in training · May 30, 2005

I think that Peter and Paul's visions were a result of what God was doing for them. I think there is a difference between visions that God gives to a person and trances, which strike me as decisively pagan.

PassionateChemistry · May 30, 2005

Scholar in training said:
I think that Peter and Paul's visions were a result of what God was doing for them. I think there is a difference between visions that God gives to a person and trances, which strike me as decisively pagan.

My question was not specifically regarding visions, but rather it was about trances. In what ways are the trances of Peter and Paul decisively pagan?

Here we see that Paul falls into a trance:

Acts 22
17 "It happened when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I fell into a trance,
18 and I saw Him saying to me, 'Make haste, and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about Me.'
(NAS95)

And here we see that Peter falls into a trance:

Acts 10
9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.
10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;
(NAS95)

In what ways are the trances of Peter and Paul pagan?

Vigil · May 30, 2005

what type of trances?

what is the motovation?

God Bless
Vigil.

talitha · May 30, 2005

motivation? the scriptures don't imply that these two trances were volitional.

Something would strike me as wrong if they were self-induced. We can ask, seek, and knock, but to induce a trance would seem to me like witchcraft and / or divination.

blessings
tal

Alive again · May 31, 2005

Also one needs to look at the original word that was translated and it's meaning. What the translatyor chose to calll a trance may not be what you are thinking about as a trance. I agree these were not by Paul and Peter's choice, but a vision that God gave them. Would be interesting to know the original words used. trances in today's terms usually refer to something along the lines of witchcraft, etc.

PassionateChemistry · May 31, 2005

Vigil said:
what type of trances?

are there multiple types of trances?; are you familiar with what a trance is?; i am referring to drug-free trances like Peter and Paul had

what is the motovation?

the motivation is spiritual consciousness

God Bless
Vigil.

blessings

PassionateChemistry · May 31, 2005

talitha said:
motivation? the scriptures don't imply that these two trances were volitional.

i disagree; you would only say this if you are unfamiliar with what causes trances; for example, the practice of biblical fasting induces trances and visions; and the early apostles did a great deal of fasting

the cycle goes like this:

fasting > trance > visions

Something would strike me as wrong if they were self-induced.

what specifically strikes you as wrong about self-induced trances?; arent all trances self-induced?

We can ask, seek, and knock, but to induce a trance would seem to me like witchcraft and / or divination.

again, it is unlikely that you personally engage in longterm biblical fasting, insofar as such inherently induces trances; is biblical fasting witchcraft?

blessings
tal

blessings

PassionateChemistry · May 31, 2005

Alive again said:
Also one needs to look at the original word that was translated and it's meaning. What the translatyor chose to calll a trance may not be what you are thinking about as a trance.

are you disagreeing with the NASB translators? how would you personally translate the greek in this case?

I agree these were not by Paul and Peter's choice, but a vision that God gave them.

on what do you base your speculation? trances and visions are two entirely different things; and in the scripture units that i've provided, the trances preceded the visions, as opposed to the other way around

Would be interesting to know the original words used.

i'm personally satisfied with the NASB translation; are you familiar with greek?

trances in today's terms usually refer to something along the lines of witchcraft, etc.

according to who's definition? yours?

trance Pronunciation Key (tr

ns)
n.

A hypnotic, cataleptic, or ecstatic state.
Detachment from one's physical surroundings, as in contemplation or daydreaming.
A semiconscious state, as between sleeping and waking; a daze.

trance

(Gr. ekstasis, from which the word "ecstasy" is derived) denotes the state of
one who is "out of himself." Such were the trances of Peter and Paul, Acts
10:10; 11:5; 22:17, ecstasies, "a preternatural, absorbed state of mind
preparing for the reception of the vision", (comp. 2 Cor. 12:1-4). In Mark 5:42
and Luke 5:26 the Greek word is rendered "astonishment," "amazement" (comp. Mark
16:8; Acts 3:10).

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=trance

Alive again · May 31, 2005

Adoniram · May 31, 2005

Trance- from Strong's.

ἔκστασις
ekstasis
ek'-stas-is
From G1839; a displacement of the mind, that is, bewilderment, ecstasy: - + be amazed, amazement, astonishment, trance.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible-

"he fell into a trance; or an ecstasy, or an ecstasy fell upon him; it was what was supernatural, and came from above, and did not arise from any natural cause in him; he was as it were out of the body, and entirely in the spirit; all the bodily organs and senses were shut up, and all sensible objects removed from him; and he was wholly intent on what was proposed to him in the vision, which filled him with wonder and astonishment."

It would appear that they were so "into" their prayer that they became unaware of their surroundings, unaware of any feeling, totally in communion with the Spirit of the Lord. Such a state is in actuality not that difficult to achieve.

The Midge · Jun 1, 2005

The comtemplative and mystic traditions have a tradition of meditation. However this is very different from the Eastern tradition or transcendental meditation.

In the Christian traditions the contemplate is seeking to be filled by the Holy Spirit and know God rather than to empty ones self. Read Richard Foster Prayer for an introduction on this type of prayer.

The trances you refer to are not a deliberate seekng for experieince or emptying out but were a side affect of receiving a vision of God.

Hope this helps. M

PassionateChemistry · Jun 1, 2005

Adoniram said:
Trance- from Strong's.

ἔκστασις
ekstasis
ek'-stas-is
From G1839; a displacement of the mind, that is, bewilderment, ecstasy: - + be amazed, amazement, astonishment, trance.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible-

"he fell into a trance; or an ecstasy, or an ecstasy fell upon him; it was what was supernatural, and came from above, and did not arise from any natural cause in him; he was as it were out of the body, and entirely in the spirit; all the bodily organs and senses were shut up, and all sensible objects removed from him; and he was wholly intent on what was proposed to him in the vision, which filled him with wonder and astonishment."

It would appear that they were so "into" their prayer that they became unaware of their surroundings, unaware of any feeling, totally in communion with the Spirit of the Lord. Such a state is in actuality not that difficult to achieve.

thank you; this is a much more biblical definition; i fully agree with it

PassionateChemistry · Jun 1, 2005

The Midge said:
The comtemplative and mystic traditions have a tradition of meditation. However this is very different from the Eastern tradition or transcendental meditation.

okay

In the Christian traditions the contemplate is seeking to be filled by the Holy Spirit and know God rather than to empty ones self. Read Richard Foster Prayer for an introduction on this type of prayer.

don't they both go together?

The trances you refer to are not a deliberate seekng for experieince or emptying out but were a side affect of receiving a vision of God.

i believe that trances are a natural byproduct of fasting

Hope this helps. M

thanks much

Faith In God · Jun 4, 2005

PassionateChemistry said:
is it okay for a christian to practice trances? Peter and Paul had trances in the bible

Okay. I saw the point, but don't think it sank in. Paul and Peter did not practice trances. They had trances, induced by God's speaking to them in visions. It's not a practice. To practice trances as we would know them today (ie hypnotism) is occultic and not to be dabbled with.

Catholicism · Jun 4, 2005

PassionateChemistry said:
is it okay for a christian to practice trances? Peter and Paul had trances in the bible

What exactly do you mean by "practice?"

is it okay for a christian to practice trances?

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