Is it not an obvious fact about being gay that...

Kattylove · Apr 18, 2009

You have absolutely no say in the matter at all?

To those of you who define yourselves as straight: do you have any control over this whatsoever, or is it the way that God made you? Was there some point in your life where you decided to be straight? Have you had the option to be emotionally (or physically) attracted to the same sex, but turned it down in order to be a "good Christian"? Wouldn't this make you fundamentally bisexual?

Discuss.

2ndRateMind · Apr 18, 2009

Kattylove said:
You have absolutely no say in the matter at all?

To those of you who define yourselves as straight: do you have any control over this whatsoever, or is it the way that God made you? Was there some point in your life where you decided to be straight? Have you had the option to be emotionally (or physically) attracted to the same sex, but turned it down in order to be a "good Christian"? Wouldn't this make you fundamentally bisexual?

Discuss.

Whether characters are cast by nature, or nurture, or some combination of the two, I tend to the view that in general the scope of our 'freedom' of choice is a great deal more limited than many on the conservative wing of Christianity might like it to be. We may have some latitude, and we ought practice to extend that latitude, but I doubt we can ever significantly influence our sexualities.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind

HaloHope · Apr 18, 2009

Kattylove said:
You have absolutely no say in the matter at all?

To those of you who define yourselves as straight: do you have any control over this whatsoever, or is it the way that God made you? Was there some point in your life where you decided to be straight? Have you had the option to be emotionally (or physically) attracted to the same sex, but turned it down in order to be a "good Christian"? Wouldn't this make you fundamentally bisexual?

Discuss.

Exactly, fantastic post. We do not choose who we are attracted too, we just are.

Tu Es Petrus · Apr 18, 2009

Kattylove said:
Is it not an obvious fact about being gay that...

You have absolutely no say in the matter at all?.......

Alcoholics don't have a say about being alcoholic either, but drunkeness is still a sin.

Kleptomaniacs don't have a say about being a Kleptomaniac either, but stealing is still a sin.

The key is to recognize whatever your particular weakness is and be the master of it instead of letting it master you. And one cannot recognize one's problem when the immoral society we live in continues to tell them that their problem is not really as problem.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2009

Ever since I was a kid, I have had an uncontrollable desire to beat up homosexuals. It is nothing that my parents taught me. Homosexuality never even came up as a child. So, is it okay to act on this, or does that bible address this issue? Just wondering.

Tu Es Petrus · Apr 18, 2009

Hammster said:
Ever since I was a kid, I have had an uncontrollable desire to beat up homosexuals. It is nothing that my parents taught me. Homosexuality never even came up as a child. So, is it okay to act on this, or does that bible address this issue? Just wondering.

Of COURSE the Bible speaks to it: Ever heard of Love Thy Neighbor?

Thats an anger issue, not a homosexual issue.

Assuming, of course, you are telling the truth and not just trolling

2ndRateMind · Apr 18, 2009

Tu Es Petrus said:
Alcoholics don't have a say about being alcoholic either, but drunkeness is still a sin.

Kleptomaniacs don't have a say about being a Kleptomaniac either, but stealing is still a sin.

The key is to recognize whatever your particular weakness is and be the master of it instead of letting it master you. And one cannot recognize one's problem when the immoral society we live in continues to tell them that their problem is not really as problem.

Excessive alcohol harms you. Stealing is illegal. Homosexuality harms no-one, and is not illegal. So, what is your point?

Hammster said:
Ever since I was a kid, I have had an uncontrollable desire to beat up homosexuals. It is nothing that my parents taught me. Homosexuality never even came up as a child. So, is it okay to act on this, or does that bible address this issue? Just wondering.

LOL! But it's that old harm principle again, that provides the primary analytical cleavage between the moral and the immoral.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

Tu Es Petrus · Apr 18, 2009

2ndRateMind said:
Excessive alcohol harms you. Stealing is illegal. Homosexuality harms no-one, and is not illegal. So, what is your point?

You think like a man and not like God.

I would say that the distinct possibility of eternal damnation sounds pretty harmful, wouldn't you?

BigNorsk · Apr 18, 2009

There's a wide difference between being attracted to someone and being homosexual.

For instance women are attracted to other women, especially a pretty face. Publishers have known this for years. So a "Women's magazine" is filled with pictures of women.

If attraction to someone of the same sex was equivalent to being a homosexual, then basically all women are homosexual, but that isn't right.

Sex is just too complicated. Sexual response definitely has a learned component to it.

Marv

Hammster · Apr 18, 2009

2ndRateMind said:
Excessive alcohol harms you. Stealing is illegal. Homosexuality harms no-one, and is not illegal. So, what is your point?

LOL! But it's that old harm principle again, that provides the primary analytical cleavage between the moral and the immoral.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

So God has no say in anything? As long as it doesn't harm anyone, that's the new standard?

HaloHope · Apr 18, 2009

Hammster said:
So God has no say in anything? As long as it doesn't harm anyone, that's the new standard?

Certainly would not call it a "new standard", more a sensible one. God condemns things that harm others, and dosent condemn things that dont. Simple.

2ndRateMind · Apr 18, 2009

Hammster said:
So God has no say in anything? As long as it doesn't harm anyone, that's the new standard?

It's not a new standard; JS Mill (1859) wrote on it, and I'm sure it existed before him, even if not so clearly articulated. As for God's say; why, His Will constitutes morality. It is for us to discover what that Will, synonymous with objective morality, actually is. I do not see that slavish adherence to ancient texts is helpful in this, but open discussion, critical thinking, and a 'free-market of ideas', certainly seem to be.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2009

HaloHope said:
Certainly would not call it a "new standard", more a sensible one. God condemns things that harm others, and dosent condemn things that dont. Simple.

Really? You got verses?

2ndRateMind · Apr 18, 2009

Hammster said:
Really? You got verses?

I don't think we need verses. The harm principle is a direct corollary of Jesus two great commandments, to 'Love God' and 'Love each other'. Do I really need to spell out the implication that loving someone precludes harming them?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

2ndRateMind · Apr 18, 2009

Tu Es Petrus said:
You think like a man and not like God.

I would say that the distinct possibility of eternal damnation sounds pretty harmful, wouldn't you?

Well, if I think like a man, that is appropriate, because I am a man. You, on the other hand, clearly think that you think like God. I am not sure what that makes you, Tu Es Petrus.

As for eternal damnation, then I think you have a pretty poor opinion of God if you think He will condemn people for loving others of the same sex, which so far this thread concludes is not a matter under their conscious control, anyway. Far more likely that He will adopt a dusty attitude towards those who choose to despise that love, I think.

Best wishes, 2RM

Tu Es Petrus · Apr 18, 2009

HaloHope said:
Certainly would not call it a "new standard", more a sensible one. God condemns things that harm others, and dosent condemn things that dont. Simple.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9–10, NIV).

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. . . . If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them" (Lev. 18:22, 20:13).

Jude 7 records that Sodom and Gomorrah "acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust." Ezekiel says that Sodom committed "abominable things" (Ezek. 16:50), which refers to homosexual acts of sin. Lot even offered his two virgin daughters in place of his guests, but the men of Sodom rejected the offer, preferring homosexual sex over heterosexual sex (Gen. 19:8–9).

2ndRateMind · Apr 18, 2009

Tu Es Petrus said:
(1 Cor. 6:9–10, NIV).
(Lev. 18:22, 20:13).
(Ezek. 16:50).
(Gen. 19:8–9).

Thanks for that, Tu Es Petrus. It is often helpful to have the texts to hand.

We have a clear contrast between our differing positions; you advocate allegiance to the letter of the Bible, I to it's spirit. You think the Bible accurate on this matter; I do not. This difference would irresolvable were it not for one thing; our capacity to reason. There is no reason to condemn homosexuals, homosexuality, or homosexual sex either given in the Bible or derived from natural law, so, on the basis that the accused are innocent until proven guilty, every reason to withhold that condemnation as nothing more than a primitive legacy of ethically undeveloped societies.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

Tu Es Petrus · Apr 18, 2009

It is a grave error to think that the "spirit" of the Bible advocates sin.

But just to clarify: Just BEING a homosexual is not a sin, do don't misunderstand me. But homosexual SEX is a mortal sin. In fact, ANY sex other than sex between one man and one woman who are married to each other is a mortal sin.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2009

2ndRateMind said:
Thanks for that, Tu Es Petrus. It is often helpful to have the texts to hand.

We have a clear contrast between our differing positions; you advocate allegience to the letter of the Bible, I to it's spirit. You think the Bible accurate on this matter; I do not. This difference would irresolvable were it not for one thing; our capacity to reason. There is no reason to condemn homosexuals, homosexuality, or homosexual sex given in the Bible, and, on the basis that the accused are innocent until proven guilty, every reason to withhold that condemnation as nothing more than a primitive legacy of ethically undeveloped societies.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

I know that this wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to reply. I am in no way condemning homosexuals any more than I would condemn any other group. I don't think that homosexuality is a greater sin than any other sin. It is, however, a sin. God has never set up a system that says something is only a sin if it harms another person. Just read the 10 commandments. Not all have to do with harming another person.

But the question was about homosexuality, and the OP was about being born a certain way. The premise was that if someone was born a certain way, shouldn't that make it right? And the answer is no. We are born sinners, or if you would like, we are born prone to sin. Does that make every sin okay as long as it doesn't hurt someone else? If my kids lie to me about eating cookies, does that hurt anyone? No. But it is still a sin.

So how someone is 'born' (which is highly debated, and not concluded) is not the issue. The issue is whether or not their actions are sinful. If you don't want to use the bible as a way to live life, then there is certainly nothing I can do about that, nor is there anything I really want to do about that. That is between you and God. But God has spoken, and it is your decision whether or not to believe Him.

HaloHope · Apr 18, 2009

2ndRateMind said:
Thanks for that, Tu Es Petrus. It is often helpful to have the texts to hand.

We have a clear contrast between our differing positions; you advocate allegiance to the letter of the Bible, I to it's spirit. You think the Bible accurate on this matter; I do not. This difference would irresolvable were it not for one thing; our capacity to reason. There is no reason to condemn homosexuals, homosexuality, or homosexual sex either given in the Bible or derived from natural law, so, on the basis that the accused are innocent until proven guilty, every reason to withhold that condemnation as nothing more than a primitive legacy of ethically undeveloped societies.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

2ndRateMind sums up my responses to posts directed at me nicely here.

I personally believe the verses used against homosexuality in the Bible to be addressing other issues and it is due to biased translations that the word homosexual even appears. Again this is my opinion, I may be wrong, but I follow my prayers on the matter and my personal relationship with him over a book.

Is it not an obvious fact about being gay that...

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