• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟277,099.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I would suggest you read my OP just as it is written, not how you want it to be written. Then read this post of yours and ask yourself who is making accusations?

Two things.

1. I agreed to a discussion in another thread (In which you made the same unfounded accusation and ran away when challenged might I add ). I'm under no obligation to answer everything you type on the forum.

2. Having said that, I actually gave answer to your OP on page one which you again ignored.

As I said in the other thread, I have attempted to be civil with you but my patience is wearing thin. You have accused me of dishonesty, you have ignored questions which you promised to answer, and generally demonstrated an ignorance of the topics you are attempting rather poorly to discuss.

I don't feel that this has been a complete waste of time though, if nothing else readers, who might be on the fence on these issues, can at least see the dishonest, hypocritical and ignorant manner in which creationists behave when challenged.

You make a fine representative for the creationist cause.
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
i dont think that we have a good evidence for a common descent that we can realy test. a lots of scientific papers made many mystakes. can you explain why do you think that they have a good evidence for a common descent rather then a common designer?
 
Reactions: Ygrene Imref
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
i dont think that we have a good evidence for a common descent that we can realy test.

Off course we do.
All it takes is some genetic sequencing and tracing genes or entire sequences.

You know.... the same way that we can test if you and your sister actually share the same biological parents.

a lots of scientific papers made many mystakes. can you explain why do you think that they have a good evidence for a common descent rather then a common designer?

Nested hierarchies.
Phylogenies.
Fossil record.
Comparative anatomy.
Geographic distribution of species.
etc etc etc.


There are more then 200.000 papers on the topic.
 
Upvote 0

Bugeyedcreepy

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2016
1,660
1,431
Canberra, Australia
✟95,748.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Last edited:
Upvote 0

toLiJC

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2012
3,041
227
✟35,877.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private

there is neither biological evolution, nor reincarnational - there is simply no chance of any of these happening

Blessings
 
Reactions: Ygrene Imref
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
there is neither biological evolution, nor reincarnational - there is simply no chance of any of these happening

Blessings

Now there is an absolutely conclusive argument, if ever I heard one. I mean, who could possibly believe that evolution is true after that?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

toLiJC

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2012
3,041
227
✟35,877.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
There is an absolutely conclusive argument, if ever I heard one. I mean, who could possibly believe that evolution is true after that?

i gave that at least as a food for thought - some people know exactly why, but others haven't yet understood

Blessings
 
Reactions: Ygrene Imref
Upvote 0

sfs

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2003
10,828
7,845
65
Massachusetts
✟392,424.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
i gave that at least as a food for thought - some people know exactly why, but others haven't yet understood
As food for thought your comment lacked nutritional value.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,144
✟349,292.00
Faith
Atheist
However, there are always exceptions. Just how involved and related those exceptions are is what helps to determine the validity of something, and the influence.
So what, in your view, are the exceptions in this context that are significant enough that you thought it worth mentioning?
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
No, the evolution of that is fairly well understood. Here is a simplified version for you:


it's only a hypothetical model with several assumptions.

so we basically have a fact (a motor need a designer) against a belief ( a motor can evolve naturally). please try again...
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,156
22,747
US
✟1,733,972.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Okay, so taking that into consideration....

Considering how lush the environment was for life to originate on earth, if with all that lushness there managed to be only a single cell that managed it (or managed to survive)....

How likely can it be that life developed anywhere that was less lush?
 
Reactions: Ygrene Imref
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
it's only a hypothetical model with several assumptions.

so we basically have a fact (a motor need a designer) against a belief ( a motor can evolve naturally). please try again...

Please, whenever creationists use the word "assumptions" without specific examples they lose. My side has an explanation, you have nothing.

You are the one that needs to try again.
 
Upvote 0

Ygrene Imref

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2017
2,636
1,085
New York, NY
✟78,349.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
So what, in your view, are the exceptions in this context that are significant enough that you thought it worth mentioning?

I tried to bring up how the mathematics is related to the biology in a simplistic way (when I brought up renormalization, error and the decay rate error example,) but in general there is a problem with assuming the fundamentals stay the same over time - which would give the implication that our measurements of other fundamentals that follow (i.e. decay rates, counts, charge and mass) are also constant over the age of the earth and universe. This is not the case in reality; indeed, it was not the case in the beginning of the universe. For example, coupling constants have drift.

It is tempting to say that the fundamentals have driven to a constant for which we can use, but again this is also based on the assumption that the metrics we use to determine these fundamentals have also remained constant. Some of these fundamentals do vary - not with time, but momenta. The fine structure "constant," for example can change with scattering energy. We have to renormalize coupling constants to evolve correction terms. The renormalization of the Higgs Boson determines the mass of other particles. The neutrino was "found" by assuming spin must be conserved (not only energy and mass,) and proposing a theoretical particle that accounts for this difference. Even now, there is still a problem with neutrino handedness (and flavor oscillation.) This particle is a fundamental particle for weak force.

These fundamentals are taken for granted when applied to theories like evolution, quantum mechanics or even relativity (there is a serious problem with the cosmological constants related to the issues of constants being nonconstant). Coupling constants are assumed to be the same throughout the history of the earth, and are used to justify constant decay rates which we use to date organic and inorganic material. Our U-clocks use this assumption.

The exceptions in practice may be marginal, but they really aren't since we are using a time scale that is very large - on the scale of the magnitude of the inverse of the time it takes a radioisotope to evolve one hyperfine transition between from the ground state. So, the assumptions being made are (at the most fundamental level) open to [large] error counts.

The changes depend on momenta - and these fundamentals do change. It is just that things like supersymmetry and (re)normalization have evolved the fundamentals that we have taken for granted as constants, and therefore apply and extrapolate to other theories and models.

I can show this in the same way I think you have seen me show some other material - written/illustrated. Or, we can continue this discussion privately if you are really that interested. However, I am not going to derail this thread any more in an attempt to explain how a change in fundamentals can change an entire theory that depends on those fundamentals being constant. I have repeatedly said evolution is a theory that works, but it is not the unique solution to the progress of the physical world - including biological processes. I have been flippantly told on these forums to show my scholarly work, or write a paper if I think I know so much about this - or even provide a paper that would suggest a different model. I have done this in real life, and I wont do that on any public forum because long before the Social Media Age I have had my intellectual property "borrowed." The most I have shown since (at the extreme chivvying of some persons) is something that is provable/calculable by reading a text. I have no problem taking the pointed scrutiny of asserting something without showing what people want (even though most of what I have said can be verified on one's own power through the math/physics.) Everyone is responsible for their own intellectual trajectory, and claiming you were just "following orders," while rejecting everything you or the standard finds incredulous is dangerously flawed. We have fought many wars, and killed many people based on scientifically closed status quo. I have provided work on this platform before - verifiable - that was dismissed. So, there is no incentive for me to prove what I have said just so that someone can tell me I don't know what I am talking about, and then I see my work 10 years later printed in Nature (for example, of course.) [/SPIOILER]

In your case, I know we disagree on several scientific issues, but as long as your mind is open (without necessarily accepting anything/everything I say,) we have no problem. We don't have to agree at all, but we also don't have to slap each other in the face by claiming one party doesn't know what they are talking about, and parading credentials on the internet as if it matters, and cannot be fabricated or stolen. As the proverb goes, my "yes" means yes, and my "no" means no. You ask me a question, and I will tell you what I know or think to be true. I am not academically, spiritually, socially or colloquially dishonest.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
And your errors and strawman argument was explained to you. You ignored the correction.



I see that you are still hung up on radioactive decay. That is only one line of evidence that the Earth is old. You really should study the concept of consilience. You could not find an excuse for trying to apply renormalization. By even your standards there was no reason to use that tool. And when you misapply a tool of course you are going to get wrong answers.
 
Upvote 0

Ygrene Imref

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2017
2,636
1,085
New York, NY
✟78,349.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
it's only a hypothetical model with several assumptions.

so we basically have a fact (a motor need a designer) against a belief ( a motor can evolve naturally). please try again...

That is the main problem often ignored: there must be a plethora of assumptions that must be made in order for the theory to work. It is interesting that the ancients from which we pull our math and philosophy from did not consider this theory in seriousness.

The resistance comes from academic pressure, programming and a culture of fear that what some have built their entire professional academic careers on (what their credentials are based on) may be completely false - and all of the years of schooling learning about these things are, in fact, not true/wrong. This is why I just move on after a certain point; this is a common dialectic in academia.

If we were just having a philosophical discussion where no one was intellectually threatened, there would be limited insecure exchanges that have been seen on this post, and in these forums.
 
Reactions: xianghua
Upvote 0