Is Holiness Possible Without Yeshua

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visionary said:

Nice theological definition, but not the reality in His Presence. Set-Aparts happen when one in living in His Presence which is Holiness. If this is a case of name and claim, it won't hold water in His Presence.

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Re the bolded part - not sure how you managed to read that into what I wrote

Re the rest: If you really want to be in his presence then you have to be holy, as he says. Holy means separate from / to, nothing more nothing less.

The application of it is to be more like Yeshua who was truly holy because he was separate from sin and the temptations of the world. G_d is Holy because he cannot be where sin is - he is separated from it. He is also separated from being of the world, as opposed to being in the world. He calls us to be holy (separate) as he is holy, which we aspire to in varying degrees as no man has yet managed to be 'holy' in the sense G_d means the word should be understood.

If G_d cannot be where sin is, because he is holy, then our sins keep him away from us if we do not repent of them.

The world sees holiness as being a case of 'good' people - usually certain leaders in different faiths or people who are made 'saints' or people of what the world calls 'outstanding' works such as Mother Teresa. G_d begs to differ . Holy is what he is, not what mere man is, or wants to think it means, or a gift to confer on a human being.

Avodat said:

Re the bolded part - not sure how you managed to read that into what I wrote

Re the rest: If you really want to be in his presence then you have to be holy, as he says. Holy means separate from / to, nothing more nothing less.

The application of it is to be more like Yeshua who was truly holy because he was separate from sin and the temptations of the world. G_d is Holy because he cannot be where sin is - he is separated from it. He is also separated from being of the world, as opposed to being in the world. He calls us to be holy (separate) as he is holy, which we aspire to in varying degrees as no man has yet managed to be 'holy' in the sense G_d means the word should be understood.

If G_d cannot be where sin is, because he is holy, then our sins keep him away from us if we do not repent of them.

The world sees holiness as being a case of 'good' people - usually certain leaders in different faiths or people who are made 'saints' or people of what the world calls 'outstanding' works such as Mother Teresa. G_d begs to differ . Holy is what he is, not what mere man is, or wants to think it means, or a gift to confer on a human being.

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Awwww.. holy is motivated by theological understand... I have been in His Holy Presence and I know it is real and not something that one can work at, but one can accept it when in His Presence. Not giving anyone who wants to work at being set apart for God. I think that is good too. But it is not the end all be all of the truth about Holiness.

visionary said:

Awwww.. holy is motivated by theological understand... I have been in His Holy Presence and I know it is real and not something that one can work at, but one can accept it when in His Presence. Not giving anyone who wants to work at being set apart for God. I think that is good too. But it is not the end all be all of the truth about Holiness.

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I charge for theses on subjects here you just get comments!

One aspires to complete holiness (as wanting to be completely apart / separate from sin and from being 'of' the world), it is not a gift - you have to work at separating yourself from all sin and from the ways of the world. That was the simple message Yeshua taught - how to be holy, as G_d is holy.

His Holy Presence is based on his Holiness - not ours and is always, therefore, complete in and of itself, unlike ours.

visionary said:

I have been in His Holy Presence and I know it is real and not something that one can work at, but one can accept it when in His Presence. Not giving anyone who wants to work at being set apart for God. I think that is good too. But it is not the end all be all of the truth about Holiness.

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Have you ever considered the possibility that King David had a concept of Messianic Judaism that is very similar to your experience and that of others in the Lord?

Avodat said:

One aspires to complete holiness (as wanting to be completely apart / separate from sin and from being 'of' the world), it is not a gift - you have to work at separating yourself from all sin and from the ways of the world. That was the simple message Yeshua taught - how to be holy, as G_d is holy.

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Do you consider your degree of holiness in Messianic Judaism related to the number of aspired commandments that you are able to keep?

How is it from your own faith experience that "separating yourself from all sin and from the ways of the world" is a “simple message” that now allows you to keep more commandments, so as to achieve a higher degree of holiness? How has Yeshua's "simple message" made it possible for those in Messianic Judaism to achieve a greater degree of holiness?

AbbaLove said:

Have you ever considered the possibility that King David had a concept of Messianic Judaism that is very similar to your experience and that of others in the Lord?



Do you consider your degree of holiness in Messianic Judaism related to the number of aspired commandments that you are able to keep?

How is it from your own faith experience that "separating yourself from all sin and from the ways of the world" is a “simple message” that now allows you to keep more commandments, so as to achieve a higher degree of holiness? How has Yeshua's "simple message" made it possible for those in Messianic Judaism to achieve a greater degree of holiness?

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It is like a line drawn, to closer to that line the further you are from Him. The object is for us to draw closer to Him not the line. Letter of the law people work hard to live and define where that line is. Just because a person has stepped over that line and now is in the kingdom side, still does make them susceptible to being pulled back over to the other side. Rather than focusing on the line, we are to focus on Him.. It doesn't hurt to know where the line is, and then stay as far away from it as one can while drawing closer to Him.

AbbaLove said:

Do you consider your degree of holiness in Messianic Judaism related to the number of aspired commandments that you are able to keep? No, salvation is not by works, however, obedience to G_d's word must be of value in keeping you from sin and from the ways of the world - that is precisely what Yeshua taught.

How is it from your own faith experience that "separating yourself from all sin and from the ways of the world" is a “simple message” that now allows you to keep more commandments, so as to achieve a higher degree of holiness? How has Yeshua's "simple message" made it possible for those in Messianic Judaism to achieve a greater degree of holiness?

It is not about commandments as works, but about a desire to be obedient (there is a big difference there) - separation from sin and the ways of the world is a continual problem for all believers - see Paul's struggle in Romans 7. As difficult as it may be at times it does not negate the simplicity of G_d's command and Yeshua's example - obey!. He never said a life of being holy, as he is holy, would be easy - it is the concept that is simple! It is just our propensity to choose to commit sin and dis-obey G_d that gives us 'degrees' of holiness; it is not a clip board to be check marked, it is a life time of trying to live one's life as close to what G_d requires of us as we can. For some people it seems to be 'easier' than for others, hence there must be 'degrees' of holiness to which we attain; none of us have cracked being truly, objectively holier (except the 'holier than thou' tribe). If there are no 'degrees' of holiness and it is all-or-nothing, then none of us has any holiness because not one of us is truly separated from sin and the world, no matter how much we might protest that we are . Matthew 7 reminds us that we can do all the G_d 'gift' bits - Romans & Corinthians etc., - but without an aspiration to the holiness bit he will not recognise us when we get to heaven.

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visionary said:

It is like a line drawn, to closer to that line the further you are from Him. The object is for us to draw closer to Him not the line. Letter of the law people work hard to live and define where that line is. Just because a person has stepped over that line and now is in the kingdom side, still does make them susceptible to being pulled back over to the other side. Rather than focusing on the line, we are to focus on Him.. It doesn't hurt to know where the line is, and then stay as far away from it as one can while drawing closer to Him.

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Your post sounds to me like the basic tenets of Christianity. "A monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior."

Christian religion - definition of Christian religion by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Avodat's previous post seems to imply that his degree of holiness is relative to the number of commandments he is able to keep based on Yeshua's "simple message" that allows him to achieve a higher degree of holiness than possible under Christianity.

So, do you both believe that a higher degree of holiness is attainable to those aspiring to faith in Messianic Judaism than is attainable to those aspiring to Christianity? Avodat seems to be differentiating between Messianic Judaism and Christianity in the sense that Yeshua's "simple message" allows him to obey more commandments (based on works), so as to achieve a higher degree of holiness than is possible within Christianity.

AbbaLove said:

Your post sounds to me like the basic tenets of Christianity. "A monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior."

Christian religion - definition of Christian religion by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Avodat's previous post seems to imply that his degree of holiness is relative to the number of commandments he is able to keep based on Yeshua's "simple message" that allows him to achieve a higher degree of holiness than possible under Christianity.

So, do you both believe that a higher degree of holiness is attainable to those aspiring to faith in Messianic Judaism than is attainable to those aspiring to Christianity? Avodat seems to be differentiating between Messianic Judaism and Christianity in the sense that Yeshua's "simple message" allows him to obey more commandments (based on works), so as to achieve a higher degree of holiness than is possible within Christianity.

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Oh no he didn't say that - he said the opposite!

AbbaLove said:

Your post sounds to me like the basic tenets of Christianity. "A monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior."

Christian religion - definition of Christian religion by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Avodat's previous post seems to imply that his degree of holiness is relative to the number of commandments he is able to keep based on Yeshua's "simple message" that allows him to achieve a higher degree of holiness than possible under Christianity.

So, do you both believe that a higher degree of holiness is attainable to those aspiring to faith in Messianic Judaism than is attainable to those aspiring to Christianity? Avodat seems to be differentiating between Messianic Judaism and Christianity in the sense that Yeshua's "simple message" allows him to obey more commandments (based on works), so as to achieve a higher degree of holiness than is possible within Christianity.

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No

Avodat said:

Oh no he didn't say that - he said the opposite!

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So, then it is possible for both Christianity and Messianic Judaism to achieve just as high a degree of holiness before the L-rd G-d, thanks to Yeshua's "simple message"(Avodat), which is central to both Messianic Judaism and Christianity, even to a little child.

"A monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior."

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So, then any preconceived notion of Messianic Judaism over Christianity (which visionary refers to as “Christidum”) that may be a big deal to some, may be inconsequential to the L-ord G-d. Do we agree that various "degrees of holiness" (Avodat) before the L-ord G-d that are attainable by Messianic Jews are also attainable by Christians.

AbbaLove said:

So, then it is possible for both Christianity and Messianic Judaism to achieve just as high a degree of holiness before the L-rd G-d, thanks to Yeshua's "simple message"(Avodat), which is central to both Messianic Judaism and Christianity, even to a little child.




So, then any preconceived notion of Messianic Judaism over Christianity (which visionary refers to as “Christidum”) that may be a big deal to some, may be inconsequential to the L-ord G-d. Do we agree that various "degrees of holiness" (Avodat) before the L-ord G-d that are attainable by Messianic Jews are also attainable by Christians.

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Nothing is out of reach for any soul on earth... Holiness included.

Not TRUE holiness.

jimbattle said:

Not TRUE holiness.

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What is 'true' holiness in your opinion?

AbbaLove said:

Need to reboot--theme of thread was to get Messianic Judaism insight on present-day Orthodox perspective on Leviticus 11:44-45. What is MJ understanding of any "degrees of holiness" in Israel today without a Temple and without shedding of blood sacrifices (thus reason for my reply to Lion King).

For starters do Orthodox Jews interpret “Hashem” to be their future Messiah in Lev. 11:44-45 -- “I am the Lord your God” (KJV) “I am Adonai your God” (CJB) and “I am Hashem Eloheichem” (OJB)

Also, do most MJs believe the reference in John 1:1-10 is the same identity as “Lord” “Adonai” “Hashem” in Lev. 11:44-45

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Really!! the orthodox perspective.... MJ insight on another's faith is an opinion.

visionary said:

Really!! the orthodox perspective.... MJ insight on another's faith is an opinion.

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Agreed!! Diversity of MJ opinions on Orthodox Jewish interpretation may not be helpful.

Fortunately, I know a Rabbi that's very knowledgeable of Orthodox perspective, Really!!

Time for this thread,
To go to bed

Avodat said:

Re the bolded part - not sure how you managed to read that into what I wrote

Re the rest: If you really want to be in his presence then you have to be holy, as he says. Holy means separate from / to, nothing more nothing less.

The application of it is to be more like Yeshua who was truly holy because he was separate from sin and the temptations of the world. G_d is Holy because he cannot be where sin is - he is separated from it. He is also separated from being of the world, as opposed to being in the world. He calls us to be holy (separate) as he is holy, which we aspire to in varying degrees as no man has yet managed to be 'holy' in the sense G_d means the word should be understood.

If G_d cannot be where sin is, because he is holy, then our sins keep him away from us if we do not repent of them.

The world sees holiness as being a case of 'good' people - usually certain leaders in different faiths or people who are made 'saints' or people of what the world calls 'outstanding' works such as Mother Teresa. G_d begs to differ . Holy is what he is, not what mere man is, or wants to think it means, or a gift to confer on a human being.

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What do you mean, no man has done it?
All one must to is not merely aspire to get clear of sin, but actually do so, and maintain purity.
Denying oneself and obeying God, that can be done, and has been done.

...

Now about the OP, no. Holiness is not possible, without Yeshua. He is God afterall. The big issue is this, is their salvation today, for those who continue to deny Yeshua, by their words and works?
There is none.

BetaChristian said:

. The big issue is this, is their salvation today, for those who continue to deny Yeshua, by their words and works?
There is none.

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Yes there is, but salvation is salvation.

I think the problem is that most people do not know the difference between salvation and reward, not knowing the difference between the outer court, and the Temple proper, and not knowing that the 3 sections of the Temple shadow the 3 sections of heaven.

People walk up to Jesus and say,'' But Lord, we taught your name in the streets, and we did miracles in your name.''

But these people are sent to the outer court where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Does God still love the Jews that he has blinded himself? Is he going to punish them for not believing when he has made it impossible for them to believe? Don't sound like the merciful God I know.

And if God has seen fit to blind them to the point of their not being able to believe, would he also condemn them?

Paul says,'' no.''

Paul say that they are enemies of the gospel but beloved for the sake of the fathers, and he also says that if their rejection means salvation for the whole world, then what will be their acceptance other than life from death?


Jesus came and was rejected by his brothers just as Joseph was, and what did Joseph tell his brothers who rejected him?

Joseph told them that it was meant to be so that pretty much ALL THE WORLD would be saved, because it was truly the whole world that came into Egypt.

The story of Joseph is all I need to know about the forgiveness God has for his chosen people but there is plenty of scriptures that show God coming to turn unrighteousness from them, and this promise is not made to any other people.

Paul says that the Messiah will come out of Zion to turn unrighteousness from them because?

Because they are enemies for your sake, for your sake.

But BELOVED for the sake of the fathers, and promises given to them.

Joel.

“Egypt shall be a desolation,
And Edom a desolate wilderness,
Because of violence against the people of Judah,
For they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20
But Judah shall abide forever,
And Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21
For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed, whom I had not acquitted;
For the Lord dwells in Zion.


Not only are the Jews God's chosen people, but he promises to come and punish everyone who has been against them when he turns unrighteousness from them.

And there are many more scriptures showing God's love for his people, but the story of Joseph says everything, and Paul backs it up.


Is Paul wrong when he says that they are enemies for our sake and beloved for the sake of the fathers?




Again, I would say that most people don't understand the design of the Temple enough to understand salvation and reward.


There will be plenty of people saved, but it can still be said of saved people,'' They shall not enter the kingdom.''


We can see this in many scriptures, one of which shows the sons of the kingdom coming to recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, They are in the kingdom having been saved, but they are escorted out to a lower realm.

Lion King said:

Aren't MJs considered as Christians?

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No, of course not. In fact, much of the Messianic movement formed from Christians leaving the Church system after having discovered that Torah has not been abolished [like Churchianity has taught them]. However, there are many within the movement who hold to the exact same doctrines as Christianity, and in reality, they are truly Christians, not MJ's, although they label themselves Messianic. Hope that helped you somewhat, because it can be confusing sometimes since Messianic Judaism does not even have a set doctrinal standard yet.....if it ever will.