Is He God of the dead or not?

Cribstyl · Mar 14, 2009

Mat 22:23The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question,
Mat 22:24saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up children for his brother.’
Mat 22:25“Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother.
Mat 22:26“So too the second and third, down to the seventh.
Mat 22:27“After them all, the woman died.
Mat 22:28“In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”
Mat 22:29But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
Mat 22:31“And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
Mat 22:32‘“I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Mat 22:33And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.
Mat 22:34But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.

What are these texts telling us about the state of the dead?

Where are the Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

AzA · Mar 14, 2009

God is the real subject of the discourse, not the dead; I would suggest it tells us more about the infinite than about the finite.

Cribstyl · Mar 14, 2009

AzA said:
God is the real subject of the discourse, not the dead; I would suggest it tells us more about the infinite than about the finite.

Nice try but, It seems that Jesus is talking about the dead..........
Mat 22:31And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
Mat 22:32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.
Mat 22:33And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

JonMiller · Mar 14, 2009

AzA said:
God is the real subject of the discourse, not the dead; I would suggest it tells us more about the infinite than about the finite.

I think that I have been thinking along those lines. To God, all are alive.

JM

AzA · Mar 14, 2009

Cribstyl said:
Nice try but, It seems that Jesus is talking about the dead..........
Mat 22:31“And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
Mat 22:32‘“I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Mat 22:33And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

In both direct quotes, God is the grammatical and substantive subject [God said [X] to you]. I understand subjects aren't always easy to spot in passive constructions.

"As for the resurrection of the dead" is adverbial context. The people did not understand the significance of what God had said of Himself. Had they had understood that, they would not have asked the question they asked.

It was one of Jesus' habits to shift questers' subjects and objects around and point them in a different direction from the one they approached him with. He did it again when in their last conversation with him they asked when he would restore the kingdom to Israel.

JonMiller · Mar 14, 2009

This is surely heresy, but I don't see why God can't have instances of us from all sorts of positions in life. Those that aren't following Him aren't given life eternal, those that are, are.

So not only may it be that everyone is in heaven, it might be that some are there many times.

JM

Cribstyl · Mar 15, 2009

AzA said:
In both direct quotes, God is the grammatical and substantive subject [God said [X] to you]. I understand subjects aren't always easy to spot in passive constructions.

"As for the resurrection of the dead" is adverbial context. The people did not understand the significance of what God had said of Himself. Had they had understood that, they would not have asked the question they asked.

It was one of Jesus' habits to shift questers' subjects and objects around and point them in a different direction from the one they approached him with. He did it again when in their last conversation with him they asked when he would restore the kingdom to Israel.

Sheeze...whatever man. your responses are indirect, and more often than not, makes little sense to me.

CRIB

AzA · Mar 15, 2009

That's fair enough, Crib. What are you not understanding?

SoldierOfTheKing · Mar 15, 2009

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead; they are only asleep. Anyway, Jesus was talking about the future resurrection of the dead, not the current state of the dead.

Cribstyl · Mar 16, 2009

Jesus said to the Saducees who tried to trap Him ...have you not read what was said to you by God:

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead; they are only asleep. Anyway, Jesus was talking about the future resurrection of the dead, not the current state of the dead.

It seems quite clear that Jesus was talking about this and other OT scriptures that was written, where God was claiming to be their God.Exd 3:6Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Luke also makes clear what Stephen said from the OT in Acts;

Act 7:32[Saying], I [am] the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

What do you understand from these texts below?

Hbr 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Hbr 12:18For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest

Hbr 12:22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

Hbr 12:23and to the assembly[fn1] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Is the cloud of witnesses, the spirits of the righteous made perfect? or not?

JonMiller · Mar 16, 2009

What about the Bible saying that when Christ rose from the dead, the first fruits were raised as well?

I am saying, the soul sleep interpretation, which agrees with so many more verses, is still compatible with a large number of saints living in heaven right at this moment (and when Paul was writing).

JM

SoldierOfTheKing · Mar 16, 2009

Cribstyl said:
Is the cloud of witnesses, the spirits of the righteous made perfect? or not?

Judging from the last verses of the previous chapter, it would seem that cloud of witnesses are the martyrs that have come before. Their martyrdom was their witness.

JonMiller said:
I am saying, the soul sleep interpretation, which agrees with so many more verses, is still compatible with a large number of saints living in heaven right at this moment (and when Paul was writing).

If any one was in heaven right now it would be one who was after God's own heart, like David, but:

"For David is not ascended into the heavens; but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand".

The fact is that the Scriptures give no promises of anybody going to heaven.

JonMiller · Mar 16, 2009

Note that it was at Christ's resurrection when some of the old saints were raised as well, if I recall correctly. So that would make both scriptures correct?

JM

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