Is God to blame?

So I recently saw a grieving mother weeping like her heart was about to bust. Her daughter had been abducted, raped, sodomized, tortured, and murdered.

My heart breaks for her. Her life is ruined and not a day will pass where she doesn't feel pain.

Is it God's fault? I would say in many ways, Yes. God could have told her daughter not to get in that car or given her the spirit of discernment to know that the attractive charming man was evil and fake.

Also, I asked God to speak to the Mother and let her know that her daughter is in heaven and let her daughter assure her that one day they will be reunited.

God could easily provide that consolation and if he chooses not to I consider him partially to blame for her agony and the agony of so many other millions of people whose lives are a living nightmare!

PopeSaintMatthew said:

So I recently saw a grieving mother weeping like her heart was about to bust. Her daughter had been abducted, raped, sodomized, tortured, and murdered.

My heart breaks for her. Her life is ruined and not a day will pass where she doesn't feel pain.

Is it God's fault? I would say in many ways, Yes. God could have told her daughter not to get in that car or given her the spirit of discernment to know that the attractive charming man was evil and fake.

Also, I asked God to speak to the Mother and let her know that her daughter is in heaven and let her daughter assure her that one day they will be reunited.

God could easily provide that consolation and if he chooses not to I consider him partially to blame for her agony and the agony of so many other millions of people whose lives are a living nightmare!

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The principle you are arguing is flawed.

Take your principle and turn it around and it can go like this...

Suppose you won a huge lottery prize. If you fail to give every cent of it to buy food for the hungry, then you are guilty of the pain, sickness, or death of every person that COULD have been helped by so doing.

I, for one, would not hold you responsible. The ability to do something does not equal the responsibility to do so.

Plus, in reality, this is God's creation. Every piece of it. Every person owes HIM for their very breath. It would not be at all unreasonable for Him to demand that every single individual do EXACTLY and ONLY what He commands.
He gives free will. He makes no such demands.

Demanding ANYTHING of Him is incredibly unreasonable. He owes nobody anything.

God isn't a plush toy you stick in your pocket and take out to make yourself feel good.

On a heavenly level, none of what happened matters if they believe in Christ.

Mod Hat...

This thread was off topic in Formal Debate, it has been moved to exploring Christianity.

Mark
Advisers Assistant

PopeSaintMatthew said:

Also, I asked God to speak to the Mother and let her know that her daughter is in heaven and let her daughter assure her that one day they will be reunited.

God could easily provide that consolation ...

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Correct, and God has already provided such consolation and assurance in his word.

I think sometimes there are no adequate answers. People are free to make their own choices, & at times those choices are used for evil rather than for good. This is not God's fault nor is it His will or His plan. I do think God is grieved over the evil that exists in the world, as I am grieved, as others are grieved.

So, I try to focus on the Christian hope: that one day all things will be set right. One day, tears, pain, & death will cease. All things will be made whole again, made new, when God's Kingdom is fully realized. This hope stems from the Resurrection of Christ we confess to believe - that because He rose, we, too will be resurrected in the end. That in the end, everything will be right - & until then, we are called to partcipate in the Kingdom now by loving others, caring for the needy, laying down our weapons, etc.

PopeSaintMatthew said:

So I recently saw a grieving mother weeping like her heart was about to bust. Her daughter had been abducted, raped, sodomized, tortured, and murdered.

My heart breaks for her. Her life is ruined and not a day will pass where she doesn't feel pain.

Is it God's fault?

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Of course not. He didn't do these things.

But, you'll say, he could have stopped them. Yes, but he didn't want to make a billion robots who are programmed always to do just what's right. He allows us to sin, and many times we do.

graceandpeace said:

So, I try to focus on the Christian hope: that one day all things will be set right.

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If we let our happiness and stability depend on circumstances, we can stay pretty messed up.

One day, tears, pain, & death will cease. All things will be made whole again, made new, when God's Kingdom is fully realized.

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Yes . . . but now in us we can have this of God's kingdom, so we are stable and "sober" >

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring ion, seeking whom he may devour." (1 Peter 5:8)

People are emotionally drunk and wrecked because they are under the power of circumstances to control how they are.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, yes there are horrible things in this world, but we need to submit to our Father and how He corrects us (Hebrews 12:6-11) so we are strong against how Satanic things and nicer things would have control over us and our emotions.

This hope stems from the Resurrection of Christ we confess to believe - that because He rose, we, too will be resurrected in the end. That in the end, everything will be right - & until then, we are called to partcipate in the Kingdom now by loving others, caring for the needy, laying down our weapons, etc.

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Yes, we have hope for the future, but also now we can have God's power of love which is able to make us stable and sound and satisfied, in His love's almighty immunity >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

But yes have compassion for people who are suffering . . . even ones whose weakness of sin and selfish loving makes them weak so they suffer in ways that they should not. "He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

But Jesus came to deliver us from the slavery of "fear of death" > Hebrews 2:14-15 > Hebrews 4:15. There are people who make such a big deal out of death; and so they suffer so much more than we should, about ones dying. Jesus has us busy with loving any and all people - - not only trying to possess certain favorites; so, we have such wonderfully pleasant goodness of this love while loving every person; so when someone dies, we can go on to fully loving other people, too >

as Jesus loves any and all of us, without favoritism >

"For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

But because we make certain people our "love idols", we are weak so we can very much suffer when things happen to these people . . . even suffering about what never happens, but we worry that it does.

So, God is not to blame for how we in selfish loving can stay weak enough to suffer in ways that we should not.

PopeSaintMatthew said:

So I recently saw a grieving mother weeping like her heart was about to bust. Her daughter had been abducted, raped, sodomized, tortured, and murdered.

My heart breaks for her. Her life is ruined and not a day will pass where she doesn't feel pain.

Is it God's fault? I would say in many ways, Yes. God could have told her daughter not to get in that car or given her the spirit of discernment to know that the attractive charming man was evil and fake.

Also, I asked God to speak to the Mother and let her know that her daughter is in heaven and let her daughter assure her that one day they will be reunited.

God could easily provide that consolation and if he chooses not to I consider him partially to blame for her agony and the agony of so many other millions of people whose lives are a living nightmare!

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Before reading further please let me know if you personally are going through some tragedy?

If you personally are going through some tragedy lets pray about that and inform me of your needs and do not read further.

You talk about the huge lose this mother had, but are we all in this world experiencing that same loss all the time (through empathizing with others)?

This world is full of tragedies, which can also be viewed as opportunities to help humans fulfill their earthly objective.



You do ask a good question that everyone asks sometime in their life, so God addresses this question first off with the story of Adam and Eve the third chapter of the book. Adam and Eve had the world you might think you want (Please! do not get the idea it is all Adam and Eve’s fault. They are just the best representatives the human race could have showing us that the wonderful Garden of Eden situation is a lousy place for a human to fulfill his earthly objective)

The story of Adam and Eve (Gen 3)(you do not have to believe it is true to get the message) is told very early, because all individuals ask the question: “Why would a truly Loving God not put us all in a Garden type situation?” The story of A&E explains why we are in our situation:

1. God desires that we all be in a Garden type situation, but God quenches His own desire to provide a better situation for us to fulfill our earthly objective.

2. Our earthly object is not to “worship God”, run around free, just don’t sin, or be good. God does not need anything from us, but is just trying to give something to us. God is trying to give us the greatest power in all universes; the power that compels God to do all He does, but that power cannot be forced on us (take it or I torture you) or can it be instinctive to man (robotically programmed in humans). It is a gift from God that is totally undeserved and unconditional (so it is Charity), but man has to accept the gift as it was given. Humans, instinctive to survival, (which is good for man to have) do not like to take charity especially if it comes at a huge cost to the giver.

3. The gift is Godly type Love which is best defined by Christ’s words and deeds. God will do all he can to help those that are willing to accept His help, fulfill their earthly objective of accepting His Love and growing that Love. Included in all that God will do and allow to happen are: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, sin, hell and tragedies of all kinds.

4. First off; death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people stop doing bad stuff.

5. It is truly unfortunate and not God’s desire that tragedies have to occur. God has to quench His desire to allow tragedies, for man’s sake to help humans accept Love. People have to see, experience, witness, receive and even give Godly type Love, before they will even understand and desire such a Love. Some even after receiving Godly type Love from an individual just like themselves will not want it or explain it away (the person is just trying to gain respect or earn their way to heaven or they are making up for the bad they have done).

6. Everyone on earth is needy, because everyone has hurt others (sinned) and should feel the burden of the sin. Their creator is trying to give them Love in the form of forgiveness so they will Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much…)

7. There are a huge amount of sever tragedies in this world, but they are really opportunities for good people to show, give, experience and witness Godly type Love. With all those tragedies some good people are still not responding, so are more needed? It is not our job to provide tragedies, but to solve, reduce, eliminate all we can, by allowing the Spirit to work through us.

8. Scripture tells us the needy will be with us always on this earth. Christ did not “heal” all those that were sick, but used those around Him to express Godly Love and show us how we are to handle tragedies (serve others with Love). Healing everyone without the witness of Godly type Love being seen in serving individual like any other person would not get people to accept God’s Love in faith and humility.

9. This world is not our Home and our rest comes later. It is both a privilege and Honor to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in serving others in this world to best help everyone around us to accept God’s Love.

10. If you had to find the most Christ Like person in the world today, where would you look?

I see Jesus explaining it in John 9: 1-7.

In John 9: 1-7 you have a tragedy (the apostles are asking about a specific tragedy, but they do not know this individual and are thinking in general terms [you need to get into their head]).

Jesus does not say: “this tragedy was caused by: Adam/Eve sinning, Satan, sin, bad luck, God or evil in the world (those have been our answers).”
Jesus does not say: “It was because of the bad that happened”, but does say: “This is for the good that can (and in this case will) happen.”

If you have lived for very long, you have seen good come from some tragedies, but why not all tragedies?

Is someone keeping good from coming from every tragedy?

Everything that is happening in the world right now (disease, natural disasters, and tragedies of all kinds) are not the result of the bad that has happened, but is the result of the GOOD that can happen!

God is quenching His desire to have us all in a Garden type situation to help us fulfill our objective.

Everything starts and ends with the objective;

The objective of humans is to: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others.” The definition of “Love” is key for it is not instinctive or just emotional but it is Love of your enemies, described by Jesus’ life and Paul in 1 Cor. 13 and by John. It requires a free will moral decision to Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season). The fall was tragic and not God’s desire, but may have been both inevitable and necessary. For all humans since the fall that have come to Love God started out by accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.
Needy people create opportunities to experience, see, accept, express and receive Godly type Love. Everyone needs the full opportunity to accept Godly type Love which may have to be done when the person reaches the bottom like the prodigal son.

Death is the way bad people stop doing bad stuff and the way good people get to be in a close paradise situation with God.

The innocent that died as the result of God’s action may not really suffer as far as we know.

IF God fulfilled pray the way you suggest, then God would be making Himself obviously known to non believers and thus they would not need to have faith in His existence.

This world is a pool of sins God dare not go near. God doesn't even hear prayers from sinners. It is the Holy Spirit pouring on us say the prayers for. We can thus seek help from God only when we are willing to stay as close as possible to Him.

Earth is a wilderness full of beasts and disasters. It's not heaven. It's not even God's realm since Adam was kicked out of Eden. Eden is inside God's realm but not today's earth. Humans on the other hand, are going further and further away from God. We can't help but sinning. That's actually why God would save us by faith alone through Christ.

We thus need stay as close as possible to God to find our shelter. The promise from God is that if have faith in Him, our souls (not bodies) will thus be saved.

Long story shorter....I was once left in a big city that I wasn't familiar with by an ex. He got mad at me over something stupid and left me over 100 miles from home. I spent the rest of that night and half of the next day walking in the wrong direction trying to get home. Once I found that I was in the wrong place, I turned around and started walking back. I was offered 7 rides from strangers and turned them all down. I stopped at a little convenient store and asked the clerk if she had a safety pin for my jacket had popped a button. Inside, there was a woman who kept looking at me and she followed me out of the store. She, her husband and children tried to get me to go to their home and call someone from there and I refused to go with them. She asked if she could walk a little ways with me and I invited her along. She talked to me about God as we journeyed about a mile from the little store where her husband and children awaited her return. She asked if we could sit, so I sat with her. She tried so very hard to get me to go home with them, I kept saying no. She asked if she could pray with me and I accepted. So, we prayed and she asked God to give me a safe journey back home. After, I gave her a hug and we parted ways. A little farther down the road, I came upon and church where a woman was taking stuff out of her car to take inside. I stopped and asked if she had a safety pin. She didn't have one, however, she insisted I take a jacket that she had in the back seat. I finally took the jacket, thanked her, hugged her and continued on. I had walked so much, I was eventually taking baby steps. By this time, I had walked for almost 24 hours and only stopping a few times. The longest being when I sat with the woman who prayed. (Maybe 30 min)
There was a lot of traffic backing up as it was rush hour, so I knew that I was getting close to city limits. Though there were no stop lights/signs within view just yet. A man had stopped and asked if I wanted a ride and I turned him down. A few minutes later, again, the same man circled around and asked me if I wanted a ride. Again, I turned him down. Some time after that, the same man in the same car stopped a third time and for the third time I turned him down and kept on walking. He didn't give up so easily and asked me to just stop for a moment. So, I did. He looked at me and these are his words, "I know you don't take rides from strangers and I don't blame you. It's dangerous for a young, pretty girl to hop in a vehicle with someone you don't know. But, this is my family (as he pulls a picture from his dash) and I wouldn't want anyone to hurt any of them, so I would not hurt you. I can see that you can barely walk, so that tells me you have walked for a long time. Just tell me where you need to go and I will get you there and you can rest your feet for a few." My intuition told me not to for he was a stranger, but my feet told me they needed to rest. Therefore, I got in the car. As soon as the tires started rolling, the guy's hand was on my thigh and I knew I was in trouble. He told me he was on his way to find a girl to take to a motel room, but I would do just fine. I put my hand on the door and insisted he let me out of the car. He then got a bit agitated with me and I told him I would jump out of the car if he didn't let me out. I looked at the car next to me and kept my eyes on the people to let them know I was in trouble. As he could see that I was getting a message across, he did drop me off where I had originally asked and I ran into the gas station. I was in there bathroom for almost an hour before I stepped out again. Unfortunately, the pay phone was not far from where his car had been so I didn't go out for a long time. After a while, I worked up the courage to get to the phone and called home. I went back inside and waited for my ride to get there. Needless to say, I was a very emotional mess by the time my ride got there.
What's my point? What would have happened if I had taken a ride from one of the other 7 people? What would have happened if I had went home with the couple? What would have happened if I didn't let the woman pray with me? I will never know the answers to those questions, but I do know what happened when I blew off my instincts and continued on. It could have ended worse, but I choose to believe that the prayer of that woman helped me through that situation.
My heart goes out to the mother who lost her daughter in such a horrific way. Reading that, brought back this moment and it could have easily been me. Even though she may have known the person or not, her instincts may have well been blown off just the same. A choice that altered the outcome.
I don't blame God for bad things that happen. No loss is easy, no loss is wanted. However, the blame is not His. I believe that we all have our number, as well as, our days can be shortened through bad choices. I also believe that something good can come from bad circumstances if we just seek for that understanding.
I pray that this family finds comfort, healing and closure.
Blessings,

PopeSaintMatthew said:

So I recently saw a grieving mother weeping like her heart was about to bust. Her daughter had been abducted, raped, sodomized, tortured, and murdered.

My heart breaks for her. Her life is ruined and not a day will pass where she doesn't feel pain.

Is it God's fault? I would say in many ways, Yes. God could have told her daughter not to get in that car or given her the spirit of discernment to know that the attractive charming man was evil and fake.

Also, I asked God to speak to the Mother and let her know that her daughter is in heaven and let her daughter assure her that one day they will be reunited.

God could easily provide that consolation and if he chooses not to I consider him partially to blame for her agony and the agony of so many other millions of people whose lives are a living nightmare!

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No, God isn't to blame. The rapist has it in his power not to rape, and the parent of the little girl you mentioned has it in her power to keep a good eye on her child and not be negligent.

PopeSaintMatthew said:

So I recently saw a grieving mother weeping like her heart was about to bust. Her daughter had been abducted, raped, sodomized, tortured, and murdered.

My heart breaks for her. Her life is ruined and not a day will pass where she doesn't feel pain.

Is it God's fault? I would say in many ways, Yes. God could have told her daughter not to get in that car or given her the spirit of discernment to know that the attractive charming man was evil and fake.

Also, I asked God to speak to the Mother and let her know that her daughter is in heaven and let her daughter assure her that one day they will be reunited.

God could easily provide that consolation and if he chooses not to I consider him partially to blame for her agony and the agony of so many other millions of people whose lives are a living nightmare!

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We’re rather disadvantaged as human beings who have only been in personal existence for a few years, equipped with a small brain that can only perceive things in relative terms, but use it to quantify an omnipotent God who is the Alpha and Omega. Having said this, it’s easy to see things the way you expressed. Job had the same conclusion, that is until he met God face to face.

My heart goes out to that young victim and her grieving mother. No matter what the hidden circumstances were, it was an absolutely horrible thing that happened.

We are not privy to all of the sordid physical and spiritual details about how and why it happened, so any conclusion we have that blames God without this knowledge cannot be true and accurate.

The one thing we humans forget are the consequences of our actions. When society rejects God, engages in sexual immoralities, puts evil and corrupt politicians into office, and don’t care whether they lie to us, commit crimes and engage in extra-marital affairs, etc, then we are responsible for creating a destructive environment. When we don’t care that television and Hollywood constantly feed our minds with gratuitous sex and extreme violence, then we are responsible. If we have no regard as to how people dress in public and allow our children to live as harlots and indulge in the evil things of this world without any knowledge of God, then we are responsible. I can go on and on, but the bottom line is that we as a society reap what we sow. When you read the Book of Chronicles, you will see example after example where God saved Israel and Judah from destruction whenever they repented and lived righteously. However, when they forsook God, the Lord allowed wars and evils to come upon them.

In a country like China, crimes like the one you shared are very rare, because they have a highly restrictive culture and government that secures their borders and prescribe severe punishments for criminal behavior. You may not agree philosophically with their government, but you have to admit it’s very effective.

The bottom line is, society (and we as individuals) are responsible for allowing these horrible evils to exist by our everyday actions, as small as you may think they are. When man (Adam) chose to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, he forsook the covering of God in which the Lord was responsible for man’s well being.