Is God not ultimately in Control?

Beautiful Ignorance · Nov 21, 2011

This is along the same lines as the thread that asks: "Why don't you blame God?"

One of the reasons I reject Christianity is that between the OT and NT, God seems to have lost some of his power and Satan has been promoted from an angel that does God's dirtiest work to a full fledged deity in his own right acting on his own accord.

The idea that any force could oppose the will of the almighty God seems both impossibly absurd and infinitely horrifying.

Impossibly absurd in that, really, who can oppose the infinite creator?

Infinitely horrifying in that if the Devil can and does oppose god's will, then we ultimately cannot rely on god to keep us safe from this being. It might be god's will that none are lost to the devil but the devil isn't following god's will and even acts against it.

pinkputter · Nov 21, 2011

Beautiful Ignorance said:
This is along the same lines as the thread that asks: "Why don't you blame God?"

One of the reasons I reject Christianity is that between the OT and NT, God seems to have lost some of his power and Satan has been promoted from an angel that does God's dirtiest work to a full fledged deity in his own right acting on his own accord.

The idea that any force could oppose the will of the almighty God seems both impossibly absurd and infinitely horrifying.

Yepp it sure does. But that's bec it's not true, of course. The good God, Jesus Christ, has already won, and therefore so have we. The devil has some power in that he can affect us here on earth, but thats just bec this is his territory. God is stronger of course. And he reminds us "[we] can do all things thru Christ who gives [us] strength." if this verse is true, how would the enemy have any more power over us? the enemy is a liar. He knows he has lost ultimately and therefore is the author of pain and confusion in this world and does a darn good job of it. But it's all just smoke and mirrors.

Be afright for nothing, if our God is for us, who can be against us?

Beautiful Ignorance · Nov 21, 2011

pinkputter said:
Yepp it sure does. But that's bec it's not true, of course. The good God, Jesus Christ, has already won, and therefore so have we. The devil has some power in that he can affect us here on earth, but thats just bec this is his territory.

But how did this become the devil's territory? Don't you think there is something the least bit wrong with that?

In my religion, everywhere is God's territory and there is no secondary evil deity.

God is stronger of course.

Well apparently not that much stronger if the devil can take over the world and make this his territory. If we can't trust God to keep us safe from "the devil" in this world, what's to stop the devil from dragging us to Hell in the next?

And he reminds us "[we] can do all things thru Christ who gives [us] strength." if this verse is true, how would the enemy have any more power over us? the enemy is a liar. He knows he has lost ultimately and therefore is the author of pain and confusion in this world and does a darn good job of it. But it's all just smoke and mirrors.

If God is allpowerful and in control, how did "the enemy" get any power to begin with?

Be afright for nothing, if our God is for us, who can be against us?

In your religion, the devil. In my religion, no one.

IndieVisible · Nov 21, 2011

We look and view through our limited senses and capacity. We judge accordingly too. We watch the sun set and at first sight it must have appeared to be sinking and disappearing, lost. That's because our sight is limited to distance and a 3 dimensional we live in. Also we are stuck in time too. Of course if we could observe the sun setting from outside of the planet, we would see it's not setting at all. That there are other mechanisms at work in our solar system. If we could view even further away we might see even more.

Our understanding of God is also limited for the same reasons. We only see in part. And still being in time, which seems to move all too slow, we can't see that this has already been completed. What is time to God? God created time and is beyond time. A Million, billion, trillion years to God is what? A nano second? So in God's Mind we are already dead and gone, this universe is already gone, God's Will has already been completed. We are merely still in time playing catchup to God's speed!

It is certainly amusing watching all of God's Apes (me included) reading the bible and trying to explain every thing. Predestined, free will, salvation, heaven, hell, love, hate, evil. We are all every single one of us no closer to the FULLEST of GOD, the HOLY TRUTH, then our ancestors the monkeys. We are all God's creatures. And every thing has already been completed! I wonder and marvel at all this! What is man that God would even give us any thought?

Beautiful Ignorance · Nov 21, 2011

IndieVisible said:
We look and view through our limited senses and capacity. We judge accordingly too. We watch the sun set and at first sight it must have appeared to be sinking and disappearing, lost. That's because our sight is limited to distance and a 3 dimensional we live in. Also we are stuck in time too. Of course if we could observe the sun setting from outside of the planet, we would see it's not setting at all. That there are other mechanisms at work in our solar system. If we could view even further away we might see even more.

Our understanding of God is also limited for the same reasons. We only see in part. And still being in time, which seems to move all too slow, we can't see that this has already been completed. What is time to God? God created time and is beyond time. A Million, billion, trillion years to God is what? A nano second? So in God's Mind we are already dead and gone, this universe is already gone, God's Will has already been completed. We are merely still in time playing catchup to God's speed!

It is certainly amusing watching all of God's Apes (me included) reading the bible and trying to explain every thing. Predestined, free will, salvation, heaven, hell, love, hate, evil. We are all every single one of us no closer to the FULLEST of GOD, the HOLY TRUTH, then our ancestors the monkeys. We are all God's creatures. And every thing has already been completed! I wonder and marvel at all this! What is man that God would even give us any thought?

I appreciate this post and agree with just about everything in it. what I don't get is how this answers the OP?

IndieVisible · Nov 21, 2011

Beautiful Ignorance said:
I appreciate this post and agree with just about everything in it. what I don't get is how this answers the OP?

I don't think the OP's question can be fully answered. I attempted in my feeble way to show why. I didn't want to be another bible thumping monkey pretending to understand God any better.

Assigning blame or excuses based on limited observation is not really wise. I take comfort to some degree knowing at least this is already finished. I place my trust in God over whatever man can say.

Why is it the way it is? My guess is as good as any one's guess. We want another guess?

pinkputter · Nov 22, 2011

Beautiful Ignorance said:
Well apparently not that much stronger if the devil can take over the world and make this his territory. If we can't trust God to keep us safe from "the devil" in this world, what's to stop the devil from dragging us to Hell in the next?

Because we can trust in God's promises.

Beautiful Ignorance said:
If God is allpowerful and in control, how did "the enemy" get any power to begin with?

Read the Bible.. he was kicked out of heaven. Pride got the best of him. I'd rather him be here for a short period of time than in Heaven (a place thats supposed to be paradise) for any longer. I want him the heck outta here, but God will deal with him with Justice accordingly, and I trust God enough to allow Him to do that.

Beautiful Ignorance said:
In your religion, the devil. In my religion, no one.

You really don't need to try and make me fearful of the devil when I've already told you he has no power over you. That means he has no power over me, too.

Now you, I would be worried, actually. If you're not finding refuge in Christ alone, you are "fresh meat" and susceptible to the devil's schemes. I don't take you to be so lacking in the common sense dept. so much so that you wouldn't be able to tell me how to overcome this.(Phil4:13)

pinkputter · Nov 22, 2011

Beautiful Ignorance said:
In your religion, the devil. In my religion, no one.

In a way though, ignorance is bliss.. When it comes with the devil. If youre not on Christ's team, he doesn't have much interest in you. It's like recruiting for the army..they don't recruit people they already have.

oi_antz · Nov 22, 2011

Beautiful Ignorance said:
But how did this become the devil's territory? Don't you think there is something the least bit wrong with that?

It isn't the devil's territory, it is ours. The devil gets into the world when we give him the right to direct our lives. Notice that this is one of the first lessons in the bible: we either trust God and obey His advice, or we choose to believe a lie (Genesis 3:4). Jesus said the devil is the father of lies, so when we believe a lie we are choosing to give authority of our mind to the devil. This is what Jesus means when He speaks about "overcoming" in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Aeneas · Nov 22, 2011

Beautiful Ignorance said:
In your religion, the devil. In my religion, no one.

Erm, no. If you think the Devil in Christianity is some kind of deity, you got it wrong.

God is with Us: Russian Znamenny Chant: Vaalam Monastery in Russia. (English) - YouTube

Faulty · Nov 22, 2011

Satan is powerful? Really? Since when?

This same Satan who needs God's permission to attack Job and Peter? (Job 1:6-12, Lk 22:31)

The same Satan who is able to be resisted my mere man and flee in terror? (Eph 6:11, James 4:7)

The same Satan who is caught and bound by a single angel in the end? (Rev 20:1-3)

This Satan is a deceiver (Jn 8:44, 1 Tim 3:7, 2 Tim 2:26, Rev 12:9, 20:10), and he tricks people. Some are tricked into believing he isn't there. Others are tricked to think he's something approaching God, Himself. Both are wrong, because neither is what is revealed about him.

In the end, he goes down in a whimper, unable to fight, but taking the billions who allowed him to deceive them down with him.

God allows him latitude now for our sake (Isa 54:16-17), so we may have a choice in whom to follow, because you either belong to God or you belong to Satan. It's your choice and there's no middle ground. (Mk 9:40, Lk 9:49, Jn 8:44)

GrayAngel · Nov 22, 2011

Beautiful Ignorance said:
This is along the same lines as the thread that asks: "Why don't you blame God?"

One of the reasons I reject Christianity is that between the OT and NT, God seems to have lost some of his power and Satan has been promoted from an angel that does God's dirtiest work to a full fledged deity in his own right acting on his own accord.

The idea that any force could oppose the will of the almighty God seems both impossibly absurd and infinitely horrifying.

Impossibly absurd in that, really, who can oppose the infinite creator?

Infinitely horrifying in that if the Devil can and does oppose god's will, then we ultimately cannot rely on god to keep us safe from this being. It might be god's will that none are lost to the devil but the devil isn't following god's will and even acts against it.

Where in the Bible does it say that Satan can resist God's will? Where does it say that Satan was God's servant? This isn't the way that Satan is portrayed anywhere in the Bible. This is who Satan is:

Satan was once an angel of God by the name of Lucifer. Lucifer's story is in both the OT and NT. While Michael was called the prince of angels, Lucifer was given dominion over the earth. He was a seraphim, a protector of God's glory, and he was the most beautiful of angels. Lucifer grew envious of God's throne, and so he gathered a third of the angels to rebel, and they lost their standing in Heaven. Satan, however, retained his authority over the earth, hence his title as "ruler of the air."

After the fall of the angels, Satan tried a similar tactic with Adam and Eve, trying to convince them that they could be like God. God did not ask Satan to do this, nor did He appreciate it. Satan was never God's right-hand man, but he was a rebel.

Satan, whose very name means "accuser," stands before God and accuses us night and day (Rev. 12:10). In the end, Satan and all of his angels will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. God is more powerful than all of them.

Now you'll probably bring up a few problem verses, but these are easily explained. For instance, I'm sure you have Job in mind.

In Job, Satan was roaming the earth, looking for people to corrupt, but he was coming up dry. God then suggested Job, who was a man in right standing with God. Satan then attacked Job, his family, and his possessions, but he did so within the limits of what God would allow.

You probably look at this and claim that Satan was working for God, but this isn't true. Satan's intentions were not to help God, but because Satan cannot do anything that God did not already preordain him to do, all he can do is try. Anything that one (such as Satan) intends for evil, God intends for good.

Genesis 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

The Bible is consistent when it comes to the nature of God and Satan. God is all-powerful, and Satan is the enemy who wishes he was God.

razeontherock · Nov 22, 2011

Beautiful Ignorance said:
One of the reasons I reject Christianity is that between the OT and NT, God seems to have lost some of his power and Satan has been promoted from an angel that does God's dirtiest work to a full fledged deity in his own right acting on his own accord.

Excuse me but, Job seems to be in the OT. There, satan acts in his own accord. Nowhere is he ever pegged as "full fledged deity." Nowhere more than Genesis 3:1, anyway.

Beautiful Ignorance said:
The idea that any force could oppose the will of the almighty God seems both impossibly absurd and infinitely horrifying.

Absurd, yes. Infinite, no. And if you want to look at a force that can oppose G-d, just look in the mirror.

Beautiful Ignorance said:
Infinitely horrifying in that if the Devil can and does oppose god's will, then we ultimately cannot rely on god to keep us safe from this being.

Now that - is absurd!

razeontherock · Nov 22, 2011

IndieVisible said:
I didn't want to be another bible thumping monkey pretending to understand God any better.

Gotta love the Orthodox!

razeontherock · Nov 22, 2011

Faulty said:
In the end, he goes down in a whimper, unable to fight, but taking the billions who allowed him to deceive them down with him.

God allows him latitude now for our sake

Overall a sane post, but I don't see your last point. How is this "for our sake?" Also, after the millennium, satan must again be loosed; I never understood that either.

Question.Everything · Nov 22, 2011

Faulty said:
Satan is powerful? Really? Since when?

Since he tricked the first 2 human beings into committing an immortal sin that would send all of us to hell if it weren't for a 33 year old man's torture and human sacrifice.

Yeah, he's pretty powerful.

pinkputter · Nov 22, 2011

Question.Everything said:
Since he tricked the first 2 human beings into committing an immortal sin that would send all of us to hell if it weren't for a 33 year old man's torture and human sacrifice.

Yeah, he's pretty powerful.

If God does permit Satan to do something, ultimately it's only to accomplish His Divine will.

Question.Everything · Nov 22, 2011

pinkputter said:
If God does permit Satan to do something, ultimately it's only to accomplish His Divine will.

His divine will was to have every human after A&E be born broken and corrupt? Some will.

pinkputter · Nov 22, 2011

Question.Everything said:
His divine will was to have every human after A&E be born broken and corrupt? Some will.

For us to overcome this nature and to choose Him ultimately.

Beautiful Ignorance · Nov 22, 2011

IndieVisible said:
I don't think the OP's question can be fully answered. I attempted in my feeble way to show why. I didn't want to be another bible thumping monkey pretending to understand God any better.

Assigning blame or excuses based on limited observation is not really wise. I take comfort to some degree knowing at least this is already finished. I place my trust in God over whatever man can say.

Why is it the way it is? My guess is as good as any one's guess. We want another guess?

The OP kind of assumes a protestant Christian view of god and the devil.

I am guessing that because you are Orthodox, your view of God is probably very similar to my own and so there probably isn't enough disagreement between us for you to really be able to answer the OP.

Is God not ultimately in Control?

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