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Two very interesting observations by scientists are:
1. "In analysing the barcodes across 100,000 species, the researchers found a telltale sign showing that almost all the animals emerged about the same time as humans."
2. "And yet—another unexpected finding from the study—species have very clear genetic boundaries, and there's nothing much in between."...The absence of "in-between" species is something that also perplexed Darwin, he said.
Let me share some more here,
The impact of deep-tier burrow systems in sediment mixing and ecosystem engineering in early Cambrian carbonate settings
Figure 3: Occurrences of <i>Thalassinoides</i> representing multi-layer colonizers from the restricted platform deposits of the Cambrian Epoch 2 Zhushadong Formation in the Guankou section.
Two episodic changes of trace fossils through the Permian-Triassic transition in the Meishan cores, Zhejiang Province
Kurt Wise's argument seems to be based on the idea that animals would not have enough time to create complex subsurface structures that would obstruct subsurface lamination.
But there are countless research documents describing very complex subsurface structures, throughout the entire geologic column.
Hypothetically, if there were a chaotic flood going on, that was lifting mountains, literally creating mountains, these animals wouldnt have had more than a few seconds to make anything at all in such a hazardous world. And yet, these complex structures are everywhere.
You can find complex descrution of laminated layers...everywhere. Yes, its true, a milipede isnt going to dig 1000 feet through massive sedimentary structures, nor will it build massive complex underground milipede cities.
But there are still plenty of complex and regular every day subsurface structures, made by biological organisms found throughout every single period of the geologic column.
You guys believe that this flood happened in...what a single year? Most young earthers propose that thousands of feet of layers were deposited, in a single year.
How many feet is that per day? At the grand canyon, post proterozoic rock spans some 8000 feet in depth. If the flood occured in 365 days, thats 21 feet of sediment per day that is deposited.
Tell me, please tell me, if 21 feet of soil, in a single day, was dropped on an amphibian, how many hours would that amphibian have to make a 5 foot tunnel?
If 21 feet per day, fell upon any small arthropod, in an environment where rocks are being metamorphosed, asteroids are falling, mountains are being pushed up, continents are flying apart...etc.
tell me, how long do you think a group of milipedes or small shellfish have, to make complex subsurface networks?
The answer is none. These animals wouldnt have half of a second in such a wild environment, to be hanging out building tunnels and burrows. And yet, this is what we find, everywhere in the geologic column. And i mean everywhere.
Hold on, let me throw in one more thing. Dinosaur nests in the mesozoic. Or amphibian nests in the devonian or reptile nests in the carboniferous.
There are nests and structures, including nests that have eggs in them, throughout the geologic column as well.
What dinosaur is hanging out building a nest and laying eggs, while 21 feet of sediment per day is building up over their head?
Young earthers say, oh well, i guess the dinosaur nest was buried during the flood.
Well hold on, the nest isnt in hadean rock, its in mesozoic rock, right in the middle of the column. So if the mesozoic pre dated the flood, then all the prior periods, cambrian, devonian, ordovicial, silurian, carboniferous, permian and alll those subsets, and even other mesozoic periods, alllll pre dated the flood.
Which doesnt make any sense because that would mean that only about 1/3 of the ground canyon was actually formed by the flood.
Other say, well maybe the nest was picked up and washed there. Eggs included.
How....dumb, yes dumb, could these ideas be?
And actually, it would be greater than 21 feet of deposition per day, as rock is highly compacted. It would probably be a much larger number than 21 feet per day. Perhaps 50 feet or more.
Ok last post for a bit.
Sedimentological analysis and reservoir characterization of a multi-darcy, billion barrel oil field – The Upper Jurassic shallow marine sandstones of the Johan Sverdrup field, North Sea, Norway - ScienceDirect
You can just google, bioturbation and just any period. Bioturbation silurian or permian or jurassic etc.
And you can find, bioturbation of really just about any common formation that contains life. And, if you read through it, you can find discussion of obstructed lamination via bioturbation.
Really, you just cant ask for much more. You have subsurface structures, both simple and complex. You have high amounts of bioturbation and obstruction of subsurface lamination. Its very common.
No millipede is going to build a 1000 foot deep city.
If life truly lived, peacefully for millions of years, this is precisely what we would find. We would find burrows, burrow networks, tunnels, nests, nests with eggs etc. alllll throughout the column. And we do.
If 20-30 or greater feet of sediment were falling on a daily basis, we would not expect to find any bioturbation, as the pressure and heat and acidity and chaotic nature of the flood, would annihilate anything and everything, perhaps in seconds.
You cant argue that the flood has the power to lift mountains and to push continents apart, but then say...well the flood wasnt that bad, these small lobster like decapods and salamander like amphibians had perhaps weeks or even months to build their underground structures.
Two episodic changes of trace fossils through the Permian-Triassic transition in the Meishan cores, Zhejiang Province
Look at this abstract.
Episode I occurred in Beds 25–27b when the ecologically complicate forms such as Chondrites, Skolithos, Rhizocorallium, and Thalassinoides disappeared hereafter, the bioturbation index reduced from 1–5 to 1–3, and the disturbed depth declined from 5–66 to 2–5 cm. Episode II took place at the base of Bed 33 with the disappearance of Palaeophycus and Planolites, and subsequent absence of trace fossils and bioturbation till the middle-upper part of Bed 41 when the disturbed structures reoccurred, but they are only tiny Planolites and the bioturbation index was never higher than 3 and the disturbed depth less than 4 mm. Episode I shows an intense change, corresponding to the main stage of the end-Permian mass extinction, whereas Episode II is relatively weak, corresponding to the epilogue of the mass extinction of trace makers in the Early Triassic.
The impact of deep-tier burrow systems in sediment mixing and ecosystem engineering in early Cambrian carbonate settings
This is research. This is prediction, it is observation, it is...justification. This is good stuff. Check it out.
Why do you insist on phrasing everything in the form of a straw man? Who said 21 feet of sediment per day is building up over their heads, except for you? Could it not have been zero sediment for a period of time, and then 200 ft of sediment in a matter of hours?
The extent of bioturbation ranges from inches to several feet in many many cases.
"All stratigraphic and taphonomic metrics indicate that, in spite of secular increases in sediment colonization in general—and bioturbation in particular—through the lower Palaeozoic, sediment mixing remained limited. Average mixed layer depths, approximated as 0.2 cm, 1 cm and 1.5 cm for the early–middle Cambrian, Cambro-Ordovician and Ordovician–Silurian, respectively (see Supplementary Information), are far less than those characteristic of modern marine settings. The scale of event bedding throughout the lower Palaeozoic is far below what would survive modern intensities of sediment mixing (global mean mixed layer depth ranges from 5 to 10 cm)... The coupled trace fossil and sedimentary records indicate that even 120 million years after the Precambrian–Cambrian transition, intensities of sediment mixing remained far below modern levels." [Tarhan et al, "Protracted development of bioturbation through the early Palaeozoic Era."
And regarding this above...
Do you understand what it is saying? It says until the silurian. It doesnt say throughout the entire geologic column. Do you know where the silurian superpositionally resides? 430 million years ago.
You must have some selective reading going on.
We present ichnological, stratigraphic and taphonomic data from a range of lower Phanerozoic siliciclastic successions spanning four palaeocontinents. The protracted development of the sediment mixed layer is also consistent with sulphur data and global sulphur model simulations. The slow increase in the intensity of bioturbation in the sediment record suggests that evolutionary advances in sediment colonization outpaced advances in sediment mixing. We conclude that ecosystem restructuring caused by the onset of significant infaunal mobile deposit feeding (‘bulldozing’) occurred well after both the Cambrian Explosion and the Great Ordovician Biodiversification Event.
creation.com is not a paper, its a creationist religious website.
This isnt even a real argument here. You have the guy who says bioturbation is almost non existant or perhaps ends prematurely.
But then you have complex subsurface bioturbation, including complex networks of tunneling found throughout the fossil record.
The best someone could say, as per the research above, is that less complex bioturbation occurred in pre silurian times (430-550 mya). Which is actually, evidence supporting evolution, as per the paper. The paper above is not referring to the rest of the 430-0 mya geologic record, which is still a vast majority.
Two very interesting observations by scientists are:
1. "In analysing the barcodes across 100,000 species, the researchers found a telltale sign showing that almost all the animals emerged about the same time as humans."
2. "And yet—another unexpected finding from the study—species have very clear genetic boundaries, and there's nothing much in between."
Almost as if there was a dramatic change in climate about 100,000 to 200,000 years ago.
At the time of the Pleistocene, the continents had moved to their current positions. At one point during the Ice Age, sheets of ice covered all of Antarctica, large parts of Europe, North America, and South America, and small areas in Asia. In North America they stretched over Greenland and Canada and parts of the northern United States. The remains of glaciers of the Ice Age can still be seen in parts of the world, including Greenland and Antarctica.
But the glaciers did not just sit there. There was a lot of movement over time, and there were about 20 cycles when the glaciers would advance and retreat as they thawed and refroze. Scientists identified the Pleistocene Epoch’s four key stages, or ages — Gelasian, Calabrian, Ionian and Tarantian.
Pleistocene Epoch: Facts About the Last Ice Age
That's a weird misunderstanding. Darwin wasn't perplexed, he noted all sorts of "in-between" cases, and scientists since have found many more:
The forms which possess in some considerable degree the character of species, but which are go closely similar to other forms, or are so closely linked to them by intermediate gradations, that naturalists do not like to rank them as distinct species, are in several respects the most important for us. We have every reason to believe that many of these doubtful and closely allied forms have permanently retained their characters for a long time; for as long, as far as we know, as have good and true species. Practically, when a naturalist can unite by means of intermediate links any two forms, he treats the one as a variety of the other; ranking the most common, but sometimes the one first described, as the species, and the other as the variety. But cases of great difficulty, which I will not here enumerate, sometimes arise in deciding whether or not to rank one form as a variety of another, even when they are closely connected by intermediate links; nor will the commonly-assumed hybrid nature of the intermediate forms always remove the difficulty. In very many cases, however, one form is ranked as a variety of another, not because the intermediate links have actually been found, but because analogy leads the observer to suppose either that they do now somewhere exist, or may formerly have existed; and here a wide door for the entry of doubt and conjecture is opened.
Charles Darwin The Origin of Species, Chapter II Variation Under Nature
Also striking is how at least some of the people who actually appraise species for a living have made peace with the perpetual tumult over defining just what it is they get up in the morning to study. The ambiguities seemed less jarring to me after a September conversation with the Smithsonian’s Kevin de Queiroz, deep in the maze of doors and corridors behind the scenes at the National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C. As a systematic biologist, he studies the evolutionary histories of reptiles, and designates species, which explains a door we passed marked “Alcohol Room.” Fire regulations require special handling for jars of animal specimens preserved in alcohol. In the cacophony of species concepts, de Queiroz sees some commonality.
Ertter, affiliated with the University of California, Berkeley and the College of Idaho in Caldwell, embraces the ambiguity. “Why do we expect that nature is nice and neat and clean? Because it’s more convenient for us,” she says. “It’s up to us to figure it out, not to demand that it’s one way or another.”
There can be a lot of messiness in picking out the limits of species, but that’s OK with philosopher Matt Haber of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. He organized three conferences this year on the complications of determining what’s a species when fire hoses of genetic information spew signs of unexpected gene mixing and tell different stories depending on the genes tracked.
Defining ‘species’ is a fuzzy art
Ring species and species clines further complicate things. Is a leopard frog in Minnesota a different species than a leopard frog in Louisiana? They can't interbreed, which is the key element in deciding. What do you think?
Makes me wonder what else they got wrong. (Barbarian checks) Um, not a biology website. That's a big hint.
So you dispute his claim that most of the flood layers are laminated?
For the record, Dr. Wise considers a layer to be bioturbated if it is completely mixed, or "homogenized", in a manner of speaking.
Again, he doesn't deny there are fossilized burrowers. To the contrary, he claims there are lots of them.
But yet the sediment is still laminated. How can that be, unless the burrowers did not have enough time to mix the sediment prior to being deeply buried and fossilized?
No. The best one can say is, there were plenty of burrowers, but not enough time for them to eliminate the lamination before they were deeply buried by the next flood deposition and subsequently fossilized.
For the record, the earth is less than 7500 years old.
Dan
About 6000 feet of sediment in the Grand Canyon, down to the level creationists think is "pre-flood."
since this exists all over the Earth, except where there are Cambrian rock at the surface, from where did all this sediment come?
Like the water, it seems some magic source was needed. For water, the usual explanation is the floodgates in the solid overhead firmament opened. How does 99+% of the Earth get covered to a mile or more of sediment? It had to come from somewhere.
Then should it not all be completely bioturbated? After all, there was plenty of time, was there not?
In a flood carrying a thousand, even several thousand feet of sediment-laden flood water, that does not seem too unrealistic. Besides, the evidence of megasequences implies substantial layering occurring at the tail end of each of the five massive surges.
Dan
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