Is evolution a fact or theory?

2tim_215 · Jun 11, 2018

If the Bible is the word of God, and He inspired the writers, He knew everything about the earth (which He created) before science/man was able to figure it out.

The Barbarian · Jun 11, 2018

The Ark Hive Mind said:
No, the Israelites (which sailed the seas),

By Solomon's time, they did. But that's long after the flood story. As you learned, the person who transcribed the flood story thought that the earth was flat, and that it was covered with a dome with windows in it to let the rain fall.

Remember, "under the heaven" at that time meant a flat surface from horizon to horizon. As you also learned, "raqia" had the connotation of a solid beaten out, like a dish or a bowl made of metal. This is why the flood story has it as a solid firmament, with floodgates in it to manage the water.

The Barbarian · Jun 11, 2018

2tim_215 said:
If the Bible is the word of God, and He inspired the writers, He knew everything about the earth (which He created) before science/man was able to figure it out.

Of course. But He wasn't teaching science. So He inspired the writers of the Bible with the truth He was giving them, not anything else. Sometimes, the details show up, such as the mention of abiogenesis in Genesis 1. But usually not, unless it directly impacted the lesson to be taught.

2tim_215 · Jun 11, 2018

Another question to you Barbarian, if there were in fact other peoples throughout the rest of the world prior to the flood, why would God just leave them alone if He were in the process of killing off the rest of civilization? The assumption would have to be that they weren't believers in Him and therefore subject to His wrath.

Bible Research Tools · Jun 11, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
The difference here is, I dont go up to theologins and tell them that they dont know what they are talking about. Not that I am aware of any on this forum. But thats exactly what bible tools seems to be doing.

I am not a theologian.

Dan

Bible Research Tools · Jun 11, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
Huh? Bioturbation is very common throughout the worlds geologic column. You will have to be more specific with your claims.

Listen to the 9 or 10 minute segment by Dr. Wise. He is far more adept at explaining it that I (append &t=38m42s to the link to go directly to it):

The segment that follows, on "Megasequences", is also revealing, as is the one following that one on the "Great Unconformity" (and the next two on on "Carbonates" and "Bacteria", and so forth).

Dan

Bible Research Tools · Jun 11, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
"There is evidence of the beginning of bioturbation by fossilized organisms, but it abruptly ends"

What is this supposed to mean?

The way Dr. Wise explains it is, critters (organisms) initialized bioturbation, but it was abruptly halted before "homogenization" by subsequent sediment layering, which suffocated and fossilized the critters.

There are fossilized animal burrows in the fossil record. You cant have animals start a burrow, then have their actions abruptly end right after they had begun, otherwise you wouldnt have a burrow.

Apparently not in your "world". Watch the video.

Dan

Bible Research Tools · Jun 11, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
Large-Diameter Burrows of the Triassic Ischigualasto Basin, NW Argentina: Paleoecological and Paleoenvironmental Implications

There are networks of tunnels discussed in this paper.

No one denies there is some bioturbation. The sedimentary layering is inconsistent. But bioturbation should be the rule, rather than the exception, under uniformitarian principles.

But really, there are burrows everywhere. You can go almost anywhere and find burrows throughout the column, given that youre in a region that displays rocks of particular ages.

They arent abruptly cut off at the beginning of formation, theyre just regular burrows.

Where can we find complete mixing -- complete destruction of the lamination -- of the kind one would expect during snail-slow superposition layering?

Dan

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

Bible Research Tools said:
No one denies there is some bioturbation. The sedimentary layering is inconsistent. But bioturbation should be the rule, rather than the exception, under uniformitarian principles.

Where can we find complete mixing -- complete destruction of the lamination -- of the kind one would expect during snail-slow superposition layering?

Dan

As I've said, there are probably thousands of research papers on bioturbation. Well developed, complex bioturbation as well.

Your argument is vague, and without detail, and clearly there nothing that I could actually provide to demonstrate that you are wrong, if not even complex burrow networks and 5 foot deep burrows of amphibians is not enough.

You can't ask for much more. Decapods could not form a more complex subsurface structure that those found in the geologic succession, nor could amphibians, among plenty of others.

There could not be more complex or more thorough bioturbation than there already is, existant in the rock record.

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

Let me share some more here,

The impact of deep-tier burrow systems in sediment mixing and ecosystem engineering in early Cambrian carbonate settings

Figure 3: Occurrences of <i>Thalassinoides</i> representing multi-layer colonizers from the restricted platform deposits of the Cambrian Epoch 2 Zhushadong Formation in the Guankou section.

Two episodic changes of trace fossils through the Permian-Triassic transition in the Meishan cores, Zhejiang Province

Kurt Wise's argument seems to be based on the idea that animals would not have enough time to create complex subsurface structures that would obstruct subsurface lamination.

But there are countless research documents describing very complex subsurface structures, throughout the entire geologic column.

You cant get more complex than what is already found. Amphibians arent going to build entire underground cities.

And the structures we are aware of, countless in number as they are, are structures that, typically would take a good amount of time for animals to make.

Hypothetically, if there were a chaotic flood going on, that was lifting mountains, literally creating mountains, these animals wouldnt have had more than a few seconds to make anything at all in such a hazardous world. And yet, these complex structures are everywhere.

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

Bible Research Tools said:
Where can we find complete mixing -- complete destruction of the lamination -- of the kind one would expect during snail-slow superposition layering?

Dan

You can find complex descrution of laminated layers...everywhere. Yes, its true, a milipede isnt going to dig 1000 feet through massive sedimentary structures, nor will it build massive complex underground milipede cities.

But there are still plenty of complex and regular every day subsurface structures, made by biological organisms found throughout every single period of the geologic column.

You guys believe that this flood happened in...what a single year? Most young earthers propose that thousands of feet of layers were deposited, in a single year.

How many feet is that per day? At the grand canyon, post proterozoic rock spans some 8000 feet in depth. If the flood occured in 365 days, thats 21 feet of sediment per day that is deposited.

Tell me, please tell me, if 21 feet of soil, in a single day, was dropped on an amphibian, how many hours would that amphibian have to make a 5 foot tunnel?

If 21 feet per day, fell upon any small arthropod, in an environment where rocks are being metamorphosed, asteroids are falling, mountains are being pushed up, continents are flying apart...etc.

tell me, how long do you think a group of milipedes or small shellfish have, to make complex subsurface networks?

The answer is none. These animals wouldnt have half of a second in such a wild environment, to be hanging out building tunnels and burrows. And yet, this is what we find, everywhere in the geologic column. And i mean everywhere.

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

Hold on, let me throw in one more thing. Dinosaur nests in the mesozoic. Or amphibian nests in the devonian or reptile nests in the carboniferous.

There are nests and structures, including nests that have eggs in them, throughout the geologic column as well.

What dinosaur is hanging out building a nest and laying eggs, while 21 feet of sediment per day is building up over their head?

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

Young earthers say, oh well, i guess the dinosaur nest was buried during the flood.

Well hold on, the nest isnt in hadean rock, its in mesozoic rock, right in the middle of the column. So if the mesozoic pre dated the flood, then all the prior periods, cambrian, devonian, ordovicial, silurian, carboniferous, permian and alll those subsets, and even other mesozoic periods, alllll pre dated the flood.

Which doesnt make any sense because that would mean that only about 1/3 of the ground canyon was actually formed by the flood.

Other say, well maybe the nest was picked up and washed there. Eggs included.

How....dumb, yes dumb, could these ideas be?

And actually, it would be greater than 21 feet of deposition per day, as rock is highly compacted. It would probably be a much larger number than 21 feet per day. Perhaps 50 feet or more.

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

Ok last post for a bit.

Sedimentological analysis and reservoir characterization of a multi-darcy, billion barrel oil field – The Upper Jurassic shallow marine sandstones of the Johan Sverdrup field, North Sea, Norway - ScienceDirect

You can just google, bioturbation and just any period. Bioturbation silurian or permian or jurassic etc.

And you can find, bioturbation of really just about any common formation that contains life. And, if you read through it, you can find discussion of obstructed lamination via bioturbation.

Really, you just cant ask for much more. You have subsurface structures, both simple and complex. You have high amounts of bioturbation and obstruction of subsurface lamination. Its very common.

No millipede is going to build a 1000 foot deep city.

If life truly lived, peacefully for millions of years, this is precisely what we would find. We would find burrows, burrow networks, tunnels, nests, nests with eggs etc. alllll throughout the column. And we do.

If 20-30 or greater feet of sediment were falling on a daily basis, we would not expect to find any bioturbation, as the pressure and heat and acidity and chaotic nature of the flood, would annihilate anything and everything, perhaps in seconds.

You cant argue that the flood has the power to lift mountains and to push continents apart, but then say...well the flood wasnt that bad, these small lobster like decapods and salamander like amphibians had perhaps weeks or even months to build their underground structures.

The Barbarian · Jun 11, 2018

2tim_215 said:
Another question to you Barbarian, if there were in fact other peoples throughout the rest of the world prior to the flood, why would God just leave them alone if He were in the process of killing off the rest of civilization?

Apparently, he wasn't. The Egyptians, for example seem to have completely overlooked the flood that was supposedly destroying them.

The assumption would have to be that they weren't believers in Him and therefore subject to His wrath.

Don't see how. He seems to have exempted all sorts of people in other places, like Europe. They were farming and building megalithic monuments, completely oblivious to the flood.

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

Two episodic changes of trace fossils through the Permian-Triassic transition in the Meishan cores, Zhejiang Province

Look at this abstract.

Episode I occurred in Beds 25–27b when the ecologically complicate forms such as Chondrites, Skolithos, Rhizocorallium, and Thalassinoides disappeared hereafter, the bioturbation index reduced from 1–5 to 1–3, and the disturbed depth declined from 5–66 to 2–5 cm. Episode II took place at the base of Bed 33 with the disappearance of Palaeophycus and Planolites, and subsequent absence of trace fossils and bioturbation till the middle-upper part of Bed 41 when the disturbed structures reoccurred, but they are only tiny Planolites and the bioturbation index was never higher than 3 and the disturbed depth less than 4 mm. Episode I shows an intense change, corresponding to the main stage of the end-Permian mass extinction, whereas Episode II is relatively weak, corresponding to the epilogue of the mass extinction of trace makers in the Early Triassic.

The impact of deep-tier burrow systems in sediment mixing and ecosystem engineering in early Cambrian carbonate settings
This is research. This is prediction, it is observation, it is...justification. This is good stuff. Check it out.

Bible Research Tools · Jun 11, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
Hardly used habitats: Dearth and distribution of burrowing in Paleozoic and Mesozoic stream and lake deposits | Geology | GeoScienceWorld

What does it say about the extent of bioturbation?

oldest evidence of bioturbation on Earth | Geology | GeoScienceWorld

What does it say about the extent of bioturbation?

The early Paleozoic development of bioturbation—Evolutionary and geobiological consequences - ScienceDirect

Click to expand...

What does it say about the extent of bioturbation?

Ordovician increase in extent and depth of bioturbation: Implications for understanding early Paleozoic ecospace utilization | Geology | GeoScienceWorld

Click to expand...

What does it say about the extent of bioturbation?

https://people.earth.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/Planavsky/44_ Tarhan et al 2015 Nature Geoscience.pdf

Finally, a paper I can read. How do you interpret this statement from the paper?

"All stratigraphic and taphonomic metrics indicate that, in spite of secular increases in sediment colonization in general—and bioturbation in particular—through the lower Palaeozoic, sediment mixing remained limited. Average mixed layer depths, approximated as 0.2 cm, 1 cm and 1.5 cm for the early–middle Cambrian, Cambro-Ordovician and Ordovician–Silurian, respectively (see Supplementary Information), are far less than those characteristic of modern marine settings. The scale of event bedding throughout the lower Palaeozoic is far below what would survive modern intensities of sediment mixing (global mean mixed layer depth ranges from 5 to 10 cm)... The coupled trace fossil and sedimentary records indicate that even 120 million years after the Precambrian–Cambrian transition, intensities of sediment mixing remained far below modern levels." [Tarhan et al, "Protracted development of bioturbation through the early Palaeozoic Era." Nature Geoscience, 28 Sep 2015, p.867]

https://www.int-res.com/articles/ab2008/2/b002p201.pdf

Is there anything in that paper worthwhile to this discussion?

Miscellaneous Sedimentary Featur
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/cd3e/e6083421e7434d51e4cd33c549ca5936e676.pdf

Is there anything in that paper worthwhile to this discussion?

There are probably thousands of research papers on observed bioturbation in the fossil record. I could never even begin to scratch the surface here.

It is fine to present papers -- even a blizzard like above, but could you at least summarize the findings, in particular for those that require payment?

I've actually seen very large burrows, tetrapod burrows in rock that are right in the devonian. Which is allegedly right in the middle of this global flood. So, during this flood, these foot long or so amphibians, were making 5 foot long burrowed homes, right in the middle of this chaotic flood. But their bones arent in the burrows, theyre just borrows that were made and left alone.

I am not referring to "burrowing", or even fossilization of burrowers. I am referring to the relatively consistent presence of lamination throughout the geologic column until modern times (e.g., until above the flood/post flood boundary). Laminated layering looks something like this:

The flat, continuous layering is the result of normal stratification during the flood, as explained in this video:

Dan

Bible Research Tools · Jun 11, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
Whats worse is when you get eggs in these dens and nests. You cant have layers deposited by a global flood, when simultaneously life was living on these layers. You just cant have it both ways.

It depends on your perception of the events. Have you read this paper?

Dinosaur eggs - creation.com

"Very rare nest structures and almost complete lack of evidence for vegetation means that dinosaur eggs have been laid on flat bedding planes. The embryo inside the egg would quickly dry out. This situation contradicts the environmental deduction of the porous eggs.

"The only viable conclusion is that the dinosaurs laid their eggs in haste. They did not have time to dig a hole or add vegetation, possibly because there was no vegetation to be found. This means the eggs were laid in an unnatural environment and on flat sediment surfaces with subsequent rapid burial by watery flows—worldwide. In fact, the Argentina eggs are interpreted as resulting from multiple and successive flooding events.10"

[Michael J. Oard, "The Meaning of porous dinosaur eggs laid on flat bedding planes." Creation Ministries International, 2013]

Dan

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

The extent of bioturbation ranges from inches to several feet in many many cases.

"All stratigraphic and taphonomic metrics indicate that, in spite of secular increases in sediment colonization in general—and bioturbation in particular—through the lower Palaeozoic, sediment mixing remained limited. Average mixed layer depths, approximated as 0.2 cm, 1 cm and 1.5 cm for the early–middle Cambrian, Cambro-Ordovician and Ordovician–Silurian, respectively (see Supplementary Information), are far less than those characteristic of modern marine settings. The scale of event bedding throughout the lower Palaeozoic is far below what would survive modern intensities of sediment mixing (global mean mixed layer depth ranges from 5 to 10 cm)... The coupled trace fossil and sedimentary records indicate that even 120 million years after the Precambrian–Cambrian transition, intensities of sediment mixing remained far below modern levels." [Tarhan et al, "Protracted development of bioturbation through the early Palaeozoic Era."

And regarding this above...

Do you understand what it is saying? It says until the silurian. It doesnt say throughout the entire geologic column. Do you know where the silurian superpositionally resides? 430 million years ago.

You must have some selective reading going on.

We present ichnological, stratigraphic and taphonomic data from a range of lower Phanerozoic siliciclastic successions spanning four palaeocontinents. The protracted development of the sediment mixed layer is also consistent with sulphur data and global sulphur model simulations. The slow increase in the intensity of bioturbation in the sediment record suggests that evolutionary advances in sediment colonization outpaced advances in sediment mixing. We conclude that ecosystem restructuring caused by the onset of significant infaunal mobile deposit feeding (‘bulldozing’) occurred well after both the Cambrian Explosion and the Great Ordovician Biodiversification Event.

Job 33:6 · Jun 11, 2018

creation.com is not a paper, its a creationist religious website.

Is evolution a fact or theory?

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