Is ellen white a prophet? does it matter

A lot of people did not have the same upbringing as I had.

I grew up a stones throw from where EGW started the work in Australia in the Coornabong area, near Avondale College.

When I was young some folk could remember EGW, I doubt if there would be any around like that now.

I could see the results of her work, the College she started, the Health Food work as well.

There was so much that EGW did for the work in Australia and the South Pacific that I would want some more details about this issue than what has been given so far.

Without the Health Food work now the Mission of the SDA in the South Pacific Division would be a lot further behind that what it is now.

Most of the money for Missions come from the work that EGW started so I am a bit more reluctant to put her down as I am sure that God has worked through her in a mighty way.

icedragon101 said:

how could a prophet not care about accurate interpation of prophecy? escically one that is still binding?

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Maybe at that particular time Mrs. White was more concerned about keeping the peace in the church. I think sometimes we hold Mrs. White to a much higher standard than we even would hold the Biblical prophets. I think she said that in the last days her work would come under extreme scrutiny. Perhaps this is that time she was referring to and look at the fulfillment of her prediction.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Originally Posted by icedragon101

how could a prophet not care about accurate interpation of prophecy? escically one that is still binding?

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Let's have it laid out in the open for all to see what you are talking about.

I am still in the dark as to what it is. Maybe I have missed it, if so please tell me what post it is so I can see what you are talking about.

icedragon101 said:

could you explain this.??? this makes no sense. This is a topic exploiring the questions and objections to EGW ministery. We already know the SDA postion. but this is a section to question the SDA postion. that is what we DO around here. I don't get were you are coming a from. please explain.

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And I am questioning the SDA position. I was responding to this statement:

icedragon101 said:

None of the SDA doctrines were fromulated because of her visions. The Sanctuary Doctrine, was discoverd by hiram Edson and OLR croiser, The sabbath was by another group, the state of the dead and the second coming were all discoverd before. EGW was given any visions. She is the claim to the spiritual gifts. that is all and you can believe them without EGW. It is not like the SDA church rises and falls on EGw. She claimed to be a lesser light pointing to a greater light, so why don't we just take her at her word and go to the greater lignt? hum To the law the testimony and EGW, if they speak not according to them there is no light in them.

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My objection to the Adventist position is that it leaves us with no freedom to disagree with anything that EGW said despite the claim that she was a "lesser light." Please read this post that I made in another EGW thread. One statement that I found on the EGW Estate site was particularly troubling to me:

Although all the instruction given to the church through Ellen White does not apply to every individual in exactly the same way, there is in all of it the same kind of universal guidance that one finds in the Bible. Every portion may be read with profit today. Not every phase of Bible instruction is pertinent in our present situation. For example, detailed instruction was given for the presentation of sacrifices at the tabernacle and temple, but the sacrificial system ended when the Lamb of God was offered. We do not bring lambs, goats, and bullocks to the altar today, but every Seventh-day Adventist recognizes the spiritual value of a study of the ancient system of offerings. Paul puts it this way: “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” 1 Corinthians 10:11. “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.” Romans 15:4.

A careful consideration of all the factors involved leads to the conclusion that on the same basis that Paul stated, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,” all the instruction given through Ellen White is profitable for the remnant church today.

--From http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pay/PAYc21.html#sth2

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This statement gives the impression that Adventists put EGW on the same level as Scripture although that is not supposed to be our official position. Also, if you read the post that I linked to above, you will see that she herself said that she did not write one article expressing merely her own ideas and that those who declared that what she wrote was her own opinion were insulting the Spirit of God.

Your question in the thread title asked if Ellen White was a prophet and if it matters. My answer is that I don't know if she was a prophet. However, it does matter because if she was a prophet and we reject her or anything she wrote, then we reject God. We simply can't read her as we would some other well-known Christian writer and glean what is useful and discard what we don't like; she doesn't give us that option. The fact that she wrote a lot of good stuff that has pointed people to Christ and to the Bible isn't enough to answer the question of whether she was a prophet. Since our church officially considers her a prophet, though, and since she herself had no problem with anyone attributing that title to her, it does matter whether we believe it or not.

So what am I to do as an Adventist who has serious doubts about whether she passes the biblical tests of a prophet that we always talk about? I think that some of her statements contradict the Bible and that possibly some of her prophecies did not come true. I disagree with a few Adventist beliefs because I see no support for them in the Bible but only in the writings of EGW. The official Adventist responses to these questions, in my opinion, are not satisfactory to explain away these issues.*

*For the sake of fairness, anyone who is interested can read the official Adventist rebuttals to the arguments of the critics at the Ellen White Estate site.

However, it does matter because if she was a prophet and we reject her or anything she wrote, then we reject God. We simply can't read her as we would some other well-known Christian writer and glean what is useful and discard what we don't like; she doesn't give us that option. The fact that she wrote a lot of good stuff that has pointed people to Christ and to the Bible isn't enough to answer the question of whether she was a prophet. Since our church officially considers her a prophet, though, and since she herself had no problem with anyone attributing that title to her, it does matter whether we believe it or not.

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I don't believe she was a prophet of God in the same regard as the offical church position.... Her son even said she interpreted things wrongly.

After I expressed to the pastor of my local Adventist church the problems with the official teaching on 1844 and Hebrews, he questioned me on EGW and her role as a prophet, and what she said regarding 1844... that I was saying she was a false messenger of God. I responded, those are your words not mine. I never said that in the meeting.

I later talked with one elder of the church who also can't accept the 1844 teaching of the church, about what the pastor said of me claiming she was a false prophet. He responded, if you would have said she was a false prophet, they would have dis-fellowshiped you from the church.

Adventtruth

Adventtruth said:

I don't believe she was a prophet of God in the same regard as the offical church position.... Her son even said she interpreted things wrongly.

After I expressed to the pastor of my local Adventist church the problems with the official teaching on 1844 and Hebrews, he questioned me on EGW and her role as a prophet, and what she said regarding 1844... that I was saying she was a false messenger of God. I responded, those are your words not mine. I never said that in the meeting.

I later talked with one elder of the church who also can't accept the 1844 teaching of the church, about what the pastor said of me claiming she was a false prophet. He responded, if you would have said she was a false prophet, they would have dis-fellowshiped you from the church.

Adventtruth

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I think some churches probably would disfellowship a person who said that EGW was a false prophet. Others would not. Most people probably wouldn't even talk to the pastor about it if they didn't believe in Ellen White. In any case, I'm having a hard time with this because I am questioning this as well as a few other doctrines of our church. I have been studying all the time lately, and I haven't found conclusive answers yet. I know that if I no longer believe that EGW was a prophet, most Adventists will probably think that I'm on the road to hell; her own words say so. On the other hand, if the Adventist Church is wrong about her prophetic gift, then it doesn't matter what other people think. What matters is what the Bible says.

I'm not sure if I can still be an Adventist if I disagree with certain fundamental beliefs, though. I guess I could be a progressive Adventist, but I don't like the idea of being a part of a church with which I have a lot of doctrinal disagreements. However, I haven't found any other churches that I agree with more.

And, as always, there is the fact that my husband is a pastor, and I am expected to uphold all of our traditional beliefs. This is really a struggle for me right now.

Read post #15
it was not a doctrine, but an interpation of prophecy. The king of the north debate in daniel 11:40. smith said it was turkey, james white said it was the catholic church. this would not be a problme and only a small matter if our chruch did not put so much emphsis on this prophecy plus for years the Evanglists in the chruch would go around telling other that Smith view was correct. This is just dumfounding to me. prophets have to be accurate 100% of the time.

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If you want me to believe this statement of your you are going to have to document much more support for your post than just say this happened.

I have read the Great Controversy through a few times and I would never come to believe that EGW supported what Smith has said.

In that book I get the very certain impression that the Roman Catholic Church is the king of the north.

Sophia7 said:

I think some churches probably would disfellowship a person who said that EGW was a false prophet. Others would not. Most people probably wouldn't even talk to the pastor about it if they didn't believe in Ellen White. In any case, I'm having a hard time with this because I am questioning this as well as a few other doctrines of our church. I have been studying all the time lately, and I haven't found conclusive answers yet. I know that if I no longer believe that EGW was a prophet, most Adventists will probably think that I'm on the road to hell; her own words say so. On the other hand, if the Adventist Church is wrong about her prophetic gift, then it doesn't matter what other people think. What matters is what the Bible says.

I'm not sure if I can still be an Adventist if I disagree with certain fundamental beliefs, though. I guess I could be a progressive Adventist, but I don't like the idea of being a part of a church with which I have a lot of doctrinal disagreements. However, I haven't found any other churches that I agree with more.

And, as always, there is the fact that my husband is a pastor, and I am expected to uphold all of our traditional beliefs. This is really a struggle for me right now.

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I agree, this church still teaches more truth than most churches. I don't tell any one if they don't ask first. The pastor never asked, he made a statement.


Advdenttruth

Sophia7 said:

There are a few Adventist beliefs that I have found myself disagreeing with lately, based on the Bible. I don't see a lot of support for them other than in the writings of Ellen White.

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Hey Sophia7, what are these you're having problems with? I seem to be going in the opposite direction to you; I've been studying a lot for some strange reason recently, and its getting more and more exciting how each new 'refutal' I come across simply reinforces our Adventist doctrines. Maybe I'm getting too lucky in the sources I read from!

In regards to the EGW issue; lets face it - most people would not like to admit it, but if she was a false prophet, then Adventism has a LOT of problems. No doubt about it.

But - let me point out; Ellen White herself said that either her work has the stamp of God, or the stamp of satan. There is no middle ground. She did not even leave herself any room for error. Seems a pretty silly thing to do if she was consciously false.

So, she was either a total fake, or is a genuine prophet of God. A lot of the time we hear secondary sources about her, saying this and that about how she said x to her husband or did y to that person. But, not very often we hear of the other secondary sources that don't go to support her claim to fame; an interesting one off the top of my head is the numerous reports by people who saw her while she was supposedly in vision; she is said to have been totally rigid, her eyes lifted to heaven, her hands outstretched, a smile on her face, and barely breathing. Apparently nobody could move her while she was like this. Make of that what you will.

All I'm saying is, for me, you cannot be half-baked. Either we as a church are the remnant church of the last days, with Ellen White as our leading prophetess, or we are not, and EGW is a fake. If EGW contradicts the Bible in anyway (bearing in mind she claims all of her writings inspired), or if any of our doctrines contradict Bible principles, we are not the remnant.

Its getting really annoying to see supposed 'Adventists' going around outrightly opposing traditional Adventist doctrine! This is in no way supporting the image of the church, or helping the individual! If you believe you have found error in the Adventist church, then you should leave the church! I would in a heartbeat! I cannot agree with staying just because 'this church still teaches more truth than most churches.'

People may not want to hear this, but you are either an Adventist, or not an Adventist. Period.

Was she really a prophet? Honestly I''ve been an Adventist now from since August 2006 (still need to get baptized). I've heard of Ellen G. White and have two of her books here. Steps to Christ and The Great Controversy. I read Steps to Christ and it was basically talking about what a relationship with Christ feels like.
Honestly I was not there when all of this happened, all I know as an Adventist I''m saved by Grace through faith. That is accepting the Holy Spirit and follow him wherever he goes.

Now the fact about Ellen G. White's books is that they all correspond to the Holy bible. She did her best in all her books to pull out the information from the bible, and in my opinion if it corresponds with the bible it is correct.

Whether or not she's a prophet, fact is if she was real or false, either way Ellen G. White can't save you, only Christ can do that. And if you want to know if it is true, pray to God and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you (seriously it is the ONLY way). The day I asked for the Holy Spirit to come into my life, the other day everything became CLEAR to me. Accepting the Holy Spirit makes everything turn around for you.

So Ellen G. White, real prophet? My question is whether or not can she save you?

Synopsis!

Sophia7 said:

But one of our official fundamental beliefs states that EGW was a prophet.

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I really think that one ,number 18, needs to be taken out. I know I shouldnt believe everything I hear but my pastor said in her writings she siad she didnt want to be a fundamental belief in order to belong to the adventist denomination

Sophia7 There are a few Adventist beliefs that I have found myself disagreeing with lately said:

which beliefs and where did she say that if we reject her we are rejecting God?

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Jon0388g said:

Hey Sophia7, what are these you're having problems with? I seem to be going in the opposite direction to you; I've been studying a lot for some strange reason recently, and its getting more and more exciting how each new 'refutal' I come across simply reinforces our Adventist doctrines. Maybe I'm getting too lucky in the sources I read from!

In regards to the EGW issue; lets face it - most people would not like to admit it, but if she was a false prophet, then Adventism has a LOT of problems. No doubt about it.

But - let me point out; Ellen White herself said that either her work has the stamp of God, or the stamp of satan. There is no middle ground. She did not even leave herself any room for error. Seems a pretty silly thing to do if she was consciously false.

So, she was either a total fake, or is a genuine prophet of God. A lot of the time we hear secondary sources about her, saying this and that about how she said x to her husband or did y to that person. But, not very often we hear of the other secondary sources that don't go to support her claim to fame; an interesting one off the top of my head is the numerous reports by people who saw her while she was supposedly in vision; she is said to have been totally rigid, her eyes lifted to heaven, her hands outstretched, a smile on her face, and barely breathing. Apparently nobody could move her while she was like this. Make of that what you will.

All I'm saying is, for me, you cannot be half-baked. Either we as a church are the remnant church of the last days, with Ellen White as our leading prophetess, or we are not, and EGW is a fake. If EGW contradicts the Bible in anyway (bearing in mind she claims all of her writings inspired), or if any of our doctrines contradict Bible principles, we are not the remnant.

Its getting really annoying to see supposed 'Adventists' going around outrightly opposing traditional Adventist doctrine! This is in no way supporting the image of the church, or helping the individual! If you believe you have found error in the Adventist church, then you should leave the church! I would in a heartbeat! I cannot agree with staying just because 'this church still teaches more truth than most churches.'

People may not want to hear this, but you are either an Adventist, or not an Adventist. Period.

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I take it that you have read all of her writtings and that they all agreed with the bible?

Adventtruth

Jon0388g said:

Hey Sophia7, what are these you're having problems with? I seem to be going in the opposite direction to you; I've been studying a lot for some strange reason recently, and its getting more and more exciting how each new 'refutal' I come across simply reinforces our Adventist doctrines. Maybe I'm getting too lucky in the sources I read from!

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The IJ is one; we've had several discussions on that lately, and I just am not convinced anymore that the Bible supports the traditional Adventist interpretations of Daniel (especially Dan. 8:14) and Hebrews. Obviously, EGW herself is another one; I'm not sure what to think about her at this point. I haven't reached any conclusions.

I also disagree with some of the lifestyle standards that she wrote about. I do not believe that the Adventist prohibition of jewelry is biblical, for example. We have been very inconsistent on this as a church in light of the fact that EGW warned against spending any money on a ring to show that you are married, yet now the church allows people to wear wedding rings (not pastors, though, in most of our churches). Those who were baptized before that concession was added to the Church Manual had to make a hard decision to take off their wedding rings; now they are upset because people are no longer asked to do so. Beyond wedding rings, I have a problem with our whole view of jewelry because I don't see any blanket condemnation of jewelry in the Bible.

There are a few other things, but I don't want to get into too many issues here. I've been a loyal Adventist my whole life, but lately I have just been finding more and more things that I am having a hard time reconciling with the Bible. I am basically studying everything over again, and I haven't concluded anything yet.

Jon0388g said:

In regards to the EGW issue; lets face it - most people would not like to admit it, but if she was a false prophet, then Adventism has a LOT of problems. No doubt about it.

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Yes, I agree, and this is part of my dilemma.

Jon0388g said:

But - let me point out; Ellen White herself said that either her work has the stamp of God, or the stamp of satan. There is no middle ground. She did not even leave herself any room for error. Seems a pretty silly thing to do if she was consciously false.

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I agree with this, too. She left us no middle ground. I've said that in many posts in the Adventist forum. It's why I'm struggling so much with this issue. I don't want to declare her a false prophet without being sure one way or the other. And it is one or the other. You're right: she left herself no room for error and us no room to declare her in error.

Jon0388g said:

So, she was either a total fake, or is a genuine prophet of God. A lot of the time we hear secondary sources about her, saying this and that about how she said x to her husband or did y to that person. But, not very often we hear of the other secondary sources that don't go to support her claim to fame; an interesting one off the top of my head is the numerous reports by people who saw her while she was supposedly in vision; she is said to have been totally rigid, her eyes lifted to heaven, her hands outstretched, a smile on her face, and barely breathing. Apparently nobody could move her while she was like this. Make of that what you will.

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Supernatural physical manifestations while in vision are not included in the biblical tests of a prophet. From the Amazing Facts Storacles lesson "Proving the Prophets":

No, miracles are not proof that someone is a true prophet. They prove only one thing--supernatural power. But supernatural power may come either from God or from Satan. That is why the Lord tells us: "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1.

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Jon0388g said:

All I'm saying is, for me, you cannot be half-baked. Either we as a church are the remnant church of the last days, with Ellen White as our leading prophetess, or we are not, and EGW is a fake. If EGW contradicts the Bible in anyway (bearing in mind she claims all of her writings inspired), or if any of our doctrines contradict Bible principles, we are not the remnant.

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And I am seeing many contradictions. I don't want to. I want to be able to go on being sure about what I believe, as I was a couple of months ago. I would rather not deal with any of this, but I have to find out what is true. The Adventist Church is not right about everything; no church is. What I need to know is how much we are right about.

Jon0388g said:

Its getting really annoying to see supposed 'Adventists' going around outrightly opposing traditional Adventist doctrine! This is in no way supporting the image of the church, or helping the individual! If you believe you have found error in the Adventist church, then you should leave the church! I would in a heartbeat! I cannot agree with staying just because 'this church still teaches more truth than most churches.'

People may not want to hear this, but you are either an Adventist, or not an Adventist. Period.

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And where would you suggest that I go? To another church where I disagree with other doctrines? I am not doubting Christianity, and I believe that it is important for Christians to be a part of a church. If I could find a church that I believed was more biblical, I would go there in a heartbeat. I haven't found one. If you think that I should go somewhere else, feel free to pray that God would show me where. I haven't heard an answer to my prayers on that yet.

Synopsis said:

And if you want to know if it is true, pray to God and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you (seriously it is the ONLY way). The day I asked for the Holy Spirit to come into my life, the other day everything became CLEAR to me. Accepting the Holy Spirit makes everything turn around for you.

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I long ago asked the Holy Spirit to come into my life, and I have felt His presence many times. However, everything hasn't become clear to me yet. I pray that it will soon.

ttreg said:

I really think that one ,number 18, needs to be taken out. I know I shouldnt believe everything I hear but my pastor said in her writings she siad she didnt want to be a fundamental belief in order to belong to the adventist denomination


which beliefs and where did she say that if we reject her we are rejecting God?

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I would suggest that you read this post that I made in another thread on this topic, where I posted some of her quotes.

Well I kind of had problems with the IJ, like I didn't exactly know where its basis was in the Bible. But like 2 weeks ago I talked with about it with my pastor, and he said pretty much the same thing as Cliff2.

Another example was Cain after he killed Abel, God checked it out.

Anyways he had a lot of good things to say, gave me some food for thought.

Sophia7 said:

The IJ is one; we've had several discussions on that lately, and I just am not convinced anymore that the Bible supports the traditional Adventist interpretations of Daniel (especially Dan. 8:14) and Hebrews.

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Well, not to digress from the thread, but remember that Daniel was a sealed book until the end times. At no point in history has Daniel (& Revelation) been studied with such intense interest. Whichever interpretation is 'correct,' the devil will attack so emphatically that, as the Bible puts it, '..hear ye indeed, but understand not.' It is interesting that there are so many Adventist/EGW-hate sites disproving this and that, but none really for pentecostal/evangelical/etc. Another important point is that most of these hate sites' real motive, is simply to take Rome out of the equation in Daniel; no papacy etc. And we have now reached the point where even our own Adventist scholars are becoming wishy-washy as to whether or not Rome is even in prophecy. EGW predicts this also.

In regard to God's method of pre-advent judgement, consider this verse: "I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.' Genesis 18:21

I also disagree with some of the lifestyle standards that she wrote about. I do not believe that the Adventist prohibition of jewelry is biblical, for example. We have been very inconsistent on this as a church in light of the fact that EGW warned against spending any money on a ring to show that you are married, yet now the church allows people to wear wedding rings (not pastors, though, in most of our churches).

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Hmm, good point. Even I've seen changes in regards to this since I was younger. But, just because the church seems to be drifting away from EGW's teaching on this point, does not automatically mean she was wrong on the teaching. The other side of the coin is simply that the church is drifting into error. And again, (if we take EGW's word for it), the Adventist church itself in the last days will go through an immense shaking.

I've always asked myself: what is the need for jewelry? I know that when I get to heaven, God will give me a crown full of jewels, that I will not have to pay $5000 for

If I recall correctly there was an interesting point brought up by OntheDL about jewelry and why it has significance with respect to the sanctuary service, and Yom Kippur. Maybe you could ask him to tell you again, I can't quite remember specifically. But it did stick in my mind.

I don't see any blanket condemnation of jewelry in the Bible.

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I do: "Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments." 1 Timothy 2:9

I also believe God wants you to hear this; literally just now as I am reading over some passages to do with jewelry, I come across Isaiah 3:13- 4:6. Not only do we see God standing 'to judge the people', but we see the women of Israel being stripped of all their 'bracelets, veils...' after which those who 'remain' (the remnant) will be called 'holy' - 'everyone who is recorded (in the books!) for life in (the New) Jerusalem'!!!! Wow! Can you see what I'm seeing?!

I agree with this, too. She left us no middle ground. I've said that in many posts in the Adventist forum. It's why I'm struggling so much with this issue. I don't want to declare her a false prophet without being sure one way or the other. And it is one or the other. You're right: she left herself no room for error and us no room to declare her in error.

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And I am seeing many contradictions. I don't want to.

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Where? Is there a link you could send me to?

And where would you suggest that I go? To another church where I disagree with other doctrines? I am not doubting Christianity, and I believe that it is important for Christians to be a part of a church. If I could find a church that I believed was more biblical, I would go there in a heartbeat. I haven't found one. If you think that I should go somewhere else, feel free to pray that God would show me where. I haven't heard an answer to my prayers on that yet.

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That was not what I was getting at. It is pretty clear to me and I think to everyone else that you are earnestly searching for truth, and you have not turned your back on Adventism just yet. But there are specific individuals who have made up their minds on certain topics, not only still professing to be Adventists, but proclaiming their objections to the Adventist faith to other non-Adventists! This is what I am totally against.

Again to clarify: If yourself or anyone else comes to a conclusive point in your search that anything concerning Adventism is false, then in my opinion you should dismember immediately. If you feel God has revealed truth to you, then you cannot go on willfully attached to that which you know to be false.

Nothing but the sanctuary doctrine distinguishes us from the rest of Christianity. And of course, no other doctrine gets attacked more intensely; not even the Sabbath. Either we have a specific end-time message to bring to the world, or we do not, and we preach the same 'love love love' message that can be found in any other denomination.

I'm honestly praying for you that you will be reassured that the Adventist movement is the last ordained remnant movement of God. We may not have all the answers, but I feel what we do have contains no Bible-contradicting error. There is just something different about the Seventh-Day Adventist Church; that much I'm sure you'll agree.

God Bless
J