Is Calvinism Just?

-57 · Dec 8, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
WHOEVER turns to Yahuweh may be set free.
WHOEVER chooses to serve Yahuweh has a chance at least. (so many people CLAIM to do so, but don't)
CHOOSE TODAY
as Jesus says He will NOT CAST OUT ANYONE who comes to Him.

Now your back where we started....What is used to make the choice?

Those that come to Jesus are granted that ability by the Father. If God garnts you the ability you will come to Christ.

-57 · Dec 8, 2019

Albion said:
..... Biblical truth that we sinners are saved not by what we can do, but by what God did for us.

God predestined the saved.

-57 · Dec 8, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Really?!?!

Do YOU want JUSTICE !?

What I hear you saying is that all people don't deservive justice....eternity in hell.

You seem to present salvation as if you deserved mercy...as if you figured it out and was able to choose Jesus.

That sounds a tad bit arrogant.....oh, I choose Jesus, He didn't choose me.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 8, 2019

-57 said:
Now your back where we started....What is used to make the choice?

Those that come to Jesus are granted that ability by the Father. If God grants you the ability you will come to Christ.

Why complicate this ?

The little children who came to see Jesus >>>
Mark 10:13-16 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
13 People were bringing children to him so that he might touch them, but the talmidim rebuked those people. 14 However, when Yeshua saw it, he became indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me, don’t stop them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 Yes! I tell you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a child will not enter it!” 16 And he took them in his arms, laid his hands on them, and made a b’rakhah over them.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

Mark 10:13-16 English Standard Version (ESV)
Let the Children Come to Me
13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” 16 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

English Standard Version (ESV)
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version. ESV® Text Edition: 2016. Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 8, 2019

-57 said:
What I hear you saying is that all people don't deserve justice....eternity in hell.

You seem to present salvation as if you deserved mercy...as if you figured it out and was able to choose Jesus.

That sounds a tad bit arrogant.....oh, I choose Jesus, He didn't choose me.

If at first you don't succeed (three strikes so far) , try, try again.

-57 · Dec 8, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Why complicate this ?

The little children who came to see Jesus >>>
Mark 10:13-16 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
13 People were bringing children to him so that he might touch them, but the talmidim rebuked those people. 14 However, when Yeshua saw it, he became indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me, don’t stop them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 Yes! I tell you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a child will not enter it!” 16 And he took them in his arms, laid his hands on them, and made a b’rakhah over them.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

Mark 10:13-16 English Standard Version (ESV)
Let the Children Come to Me
13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” 16 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

English Standard Version (ESV)
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version. ESV® Text Edition: 2016. Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers.

15 Yes! I tell you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a child will not enter it!”

Children are totaly dependent on their parents....People are totaly dependent on God for their salvation. Yu don't choose God, God chooses you.

Jesus is YHWH · Dec 8, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I’m going to try to keep the OP short and to the point and I will kindly ask that everyone please just stick to the topic of the thread. We’re not here to interpret scriptures, we can go round and round all day and never accomplish anything that way because everyone has their own opinions on scripture interpretation. The point I want to make is how can God’s judgement be just if Calvin’s theology is true? According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is incapable of repenting and believing in God unless God elects them to salvation. Below I have provided a brief description of total depravity from Wikipedia. Now I know that this description may not fit everyone’s view of the doctrine since many people view it in different ways but these can be discussed in the thread.

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in reformed theology. if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.

The major complication to Calvin’s theology is the doctrine of unconditional election, which I believe fails to take Acts 10:34-35 into consideration.

n Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

In Calvinist and some other churches (Waldensians, Katharoi, Anabaptists, Particular Baptists, etc.) this election has been called "unconditional" because his choice to save the elect does not depend on anything inherent in any person chosen, on any act that a person performs or on any belief that a person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism, the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man

So according to Calvin’s theology not only is man incapable of repentance or even believing in God, he is also incapable of doing anything to attain God’s election. This presents us with a huge problem because now God’s election is completely outside of man’s capability of attaining. According to John 3:18 man is judged according to wether or not he believes in Christ, but according to Calvin’s theology man is completely incapable of believing on his own accord in any way and is also incapable of attaining God’s grace that would enable him to believe. So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own. Ultimately Calvin’s theology makes God responsible not only for those who will burn in the lake of fire but also responsible for them not coming to repentance since He has intentionally made them in this fallen and incapable state. With that said, how can God’s judgement and punishment be just if this was of His doing and man never had any choice in the matter? If God’s judgment is unjust then we are forced to conclude that Calvin’s theology is incorrect because God is incapable of being unjust.

And I would ask is James Arminius ( founder of Arminianism ) just since he was in complete agreement with Calvin on mans Total Depravity. See below:

Jacob Arminius writes,

“IN the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with ‘righteousness and true holiness,’ and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen 1:26-27) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (Gen 2:17) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)

But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)

In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.” 6

Arminius further writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7

Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

-57 · Dec 8, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
If at first you don't succeed (three strikes so far) , try, try again.

Your theology is wishy washy concerning free-will. I've been waiting for an answer as to why one would choose to accept or reject Christ but every single Arminian based answer refuses to present an answer deeper than the surface.

When the preachers says, will you come forward and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior..many say no. Some say yes. What thought go into and what reasons why determine the decision?

The answer....life experience, happenstance.....and as the Arminean would say a little nudging from God.

renniks · Dec 8, 2019

Albion said:
All of this a famously historic reply to the corrupt teaching of the church of the West during the Late Middle Ages, just before the Reformation came along to say "No. We need to return to the faith of the Apostolic Church

Ok, but as happens often, the pendulum swung too far the other direction. The early church did not preach Calvinism.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 8, 2019

-57 said:
Your theology is wishy washy concerning free-will. I've been waiting for an answer as to why one would choose to accept or reject Christ but every single Arminian based answer refuses to present an answer deeper than the surface.
When the preachers says, will you come forward and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior..many say no. Some say yes. What thought go into and what reasons why determine the decision?
The answer....life experience, happenstance.....and as the Arminean would say a little nudging from God.

Not Scripturally, no. And not factually, no, either.
Jesus Says: Unless someone becomes like a little child, they will never see the Kingdom of Heaven.

renniks · Dec 8, 2019

Dave L said:
But they would not stumble if the could recognize Christ and understand his word. Which none can do without the new birth.

If they didn't recognize their need for Christ, they would never get saved in the first place.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 8, 2019

renniks said:
If they didn't recognize their need for Christ, they would never get saved in the first place.

Remember the man who was healed?

The religious leaders demanded he tell them who had the affrontery to heal him... and he did not know !

Later when Jesus saw him again, he found out.

-57 · Dec 8, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Not Scripturally, no. And not factually, no, either.
Jesus Says: Unless someone becomes like a little child, they will never see the Kingdom of Heaven.

Then it's upon you to explain what becoming like a little child means. What I did was present a little explanation of what it meant...You think you refuted it by saying "Not Scripturally, no. And not factually, no, either."...never explaining why you said that. Then you re-quoted the verse....with out providing your commentary on what it means to be like a little child.

Jesus is YHWH · Dec 8, 2019

renniks said:
Ok, but as happens often, the pendulum swung too far the other direction. The early church did not preach Calvinism.

When you say " early church" can you give us a time frame with what centuries you are referring to thanks !

renniks · Dec 8, 2019

Before Augustine.

Jesus is YHWH said:
When you say " early church" can you give us a time frame with what centuries you are referring to thanks !

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 8, 2019

This is not important, whether it is true or not I don't know. >>> (maybe just a matter of opinion ) >>

-57 said:
Your theology is wishy washy concerning free-will.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
What does Scripture say?

-57 said:
I've been waiting for an answer as to why one would choose to accept or reject Christ

-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not important , apparently, and whether true or not, it may be just a matter of opinion again >>

-57 said:
but every single Arminian based answer refuses to present an answer deeper than the surface.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Usually it may be it is for show, not for reality, apparently.

-57 said:
When the preachers says, will you come forward and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior..many say no. Some say yes. What thought go into and what reasons why determine the decision?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, opinion ? >>>

-57 said:
The answer....life experience, happenstance....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cute ? >>>

-57 said:
.and as the Arminean would say a little nudging from God.

-57 · Dec 8, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
This is not important, whether it is true or not I don't know. >>> (maybe just a matter of opinion ) >>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
What does Scripture say?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not important , apparently, and whether true or not, it may be just a matter of opinion again >>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Usually it may be it is for show, not for reality, apparently.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, opinion ? >>>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cute ? >>>

To be honest what you presented was a bunch of non answers. Free-will choice....or the reason why you choose this or that is based upon life..experience....knowledge....what ever.
If you climbed onto the roof of your house you wouldn't jump off because you know you might die or get seriously hurt. This knowledge goes into the thought process to come up with the free-will choice not to jump.

But when it comes to choosing Jesus or not choosing Jesus you always forget to include life..experience....knowledge....what ever.

Jesus is YHWH · Dec 8, 2019

renniks said:
Before Augustine.

Thanks so its clear that Augustine and Calvin arrived at their conclusions from Scripture that teaches predestination,election, reprobation etc.....

Jesus, John, Peter, Paul, Luke and Jude all taught it as we read below.

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 9:22-23
"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"

Ephesians 1:3-6
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

John 17:9
"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." -

John 8:47
"Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." -

Jude 1:4
"For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." -

1 Peter 2:8
"and 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." -

Romans 11:5-7
"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened"

hope this helps !!!

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 8, 2019

-57 said:
To be honest what you presented was a bunch of non answers. Free-will choice....or the reason why you choose this or that is based upon life..experience....knowledge....what ever. If you climbed onto the roof of your house you wouldn't jump off because you know you might die or get seriously hurt. This knowledge goes into the thought process to come up with the free-will choice not to jump. But when it comes to choosing Jesus or not choosing Jesus you always forget to include life..experience....knowledge....what ever.

ALWAYS go by what Scripture says, what Yahuweh Reveals, for all such questions.

Assumptions you might be making do not help find the truth nor the answers you are seeking.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 8, 2019

Jesus is YHWH said:
hope this helps !!!

No, I don't think it addresses the real issue here.

Predestination as it is used, found, and meant by Yahuweh IN SCRIPTURE
is not apparently
what the various doctrines are about that come from men's own ideas, or even demonic ones,
for doctrines that turn out to be potentially opposed to all Scripture and bring harm to little children and to the weak in faith -- like putting a stumbling block in front of someone....

Is Calvinism Just?

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