Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

Soul Searcher · Jul 11, 2007

YAQUBOS said:
Friend, if this was a thread about the authority of the Word of God, I would write more in detail. But it is not.

Now, you mentioned a verse from Paul's Epistles. In fact, that's what I already told you: you need to know what "Inspiration" means. As soon as you understand what that means concerning the Scripture, you will know how all the words of the Bible are the Word of God, and how this doesn't contradict the fact that not all words are said by God in all contexts.

As I said I know what inspired means and I know the tired old arguments that are used to try and make it mean something that it does not. You are using it improperly.

Again, this belongs to another thread.

But for now, let me just tell you the following:

As for what you say concerning inerrancy: there are NO errors in the original.

Nothing but empty words, We do not have the originals to any of the texts, there is no way to confirm it there were errors or not but given the education fo the people back then I would think that they most likely were riddled with errors.

As for what you say about infallibility: it is not human understanding of the Scripture that makes it infallible. The Word of God is infallible, even if many people do not understand it.

If the people get the wrong message from the text then to say that the text is infallible is incorrect.

Then how do you say that you can add to THE Bible and yet not add to the Word of God?

What? That statement makes no sense to me at all, first the bibel is not the word of God, secondly I have not suggested that anyone add to the word of God. What I did suggest was that one read the bible and replace the references of "Word of God", "Word of the Lord", "The Word" with the bible and see how silly it sounds. If the bible is the word of God as you say then it is not adding or taking away but a proper translation e.g. bible=word of God. I am not suggesting that the bible be changed in anyway I am suggesting that to refer to it as the word of God is incorrect.

Again, go learn about "inspiration" in the biblical context.

Again I know what inspiration means.

And in the Bible it is WRITTEN by words.

I will not have hard time to show it to you. But first forget about your islamic definition of what we mean by "The Word of God".

I have no Islamic definition and I find that statement rather insulting. You can not show me that Jesus said the bible is the word of God because he did not say this, you can't show me that the disciples said this either because they did not do so. You can only reference one scipture that is fromt he apostle Paul that says "all scripture is inspired" Please notice it says all scripture not the bible. The bible is not "all scripture" there were other scriptures that existed at the time of the letter from Paul that would have been included in this statement and many of those which are in the bible had not yet been written so would not have been covered, unless Paul meant it as all scripture past present and future in which case it opens up the door to many many writings which are not in the bible as being scripture or as you interpret it the word of God.

You want the Word of God to be incarnated in each word of the Bible, or else you will not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. But the fact is that we are not saying that the Bible is the INCARNATED Word of God, but it is the inspired, written Word of God.

No I do not want any such thing, I do not believe that the bible is the word of God because the bible itself says otherwise and only traditions of men say that it is.

Wrong. You don't know what inspiration means in the biblical context. God doesn't talk to us without the men of God. He talks through them, by leading them to write when it comes to Scripture.

The bible says something to that effect regaurding prophecy. It does not indicate that it refers to anything other than the prophets.

Ok. You are free to agree with Muslims. They believe that the Qur'an has discended from God. No human element is contained in it, according to them.

Again I am insulted.. If they believe that the words the bible uses which say God said is from God and the ones that say Peter said is from Peter then they are correct. That is what the bible says and that is the proper understanding of it. I will ask that you stop comparing me to other religions as I certianly am not Muslim.

But if you want to be a Christian, then you need to be familiar with the real written Word of God, and you need to accept the fact that God talks to us by inspiration, and not by direct words falling from Heaven.

If I want to be? Who are you to decide who is a Christain and who is not, I'll have you know that I am and I do not worship a book as God, The bible is a collection of writings compiled and translated by men into a bound text which we now know as the bible. You can preach all you want but the facts are the facts.

"thought" to be inspired by God??

Not really inspired by God?

Anyway, that's another thread.

Yes thought to be inspired by God. In other words a group of men got together with hundreds on writings and they decided which ones were inspired [or which ones that they thought were inspired] and which ones should be destroyed.

"And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?" ( Matthew 19:4-5 )

I remind you that this last sentence was not originally said by God, but by the writer of Genesis or by Adam, but certainly not by God directly talking to anyone in the context. But Jesus says that He who created them male and female SAID that sentence.

It could be read that way, perhaps even correctly but this is far from saying that our bibles are the word of God or that all of scripture is the word of God or any other such thing.

Well, I think you can give your personal opinion about baptism WITHOUT sinning against the Word of God.

Who said I was sinning against the word of God? The word of God is spirit, not paper and ink. I think it is wrong to use the phrase "word of God" with talking about the bible and I will say so openly. There is no sin in stating the truth of this matter.

Water Baptism is a ritual.. fact not opinion.
If water baptism is a requirement for salvation then salvation depends on a man.. fact not opinion.

YAQUBOS · Jul 12, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
As I said I know what inspired means and I know the tired old arguments that are used to try and make it mean something that it does not. You are using it improperly.

1. No, you don't know what inspiration means in the biblical context.

2. You are out of the topic of this thread.

Nothing but empty words, We do not have the originals to any of the texts, there is no way to confirm it there were errors or not but given the education fo the people back then I would think that they most likely were riddled with errors.

1. We have the originals represented by all the manuscripts that we have => we can know what were the originals.

2. The inerrancy of the Scripture has nothing to do with the education of the people of that time, because God is the real author of it.

3. You are out of the topic of this thread.

If the people get the wrong message from the text then to say that the text is infallible is incorrect.

1. What you say is totally wrong and proves that you know nothing about what infallible means. If I tell you something that is totally right, but you don't understand it, this doesn't mean that I didn't say it right.

2. You are again out of the topic of this thread. I remind you: this thread is about the importance of water baptism.

What? That statement makes no sense to me at all, first the bibel is not the word of God, secondly I have not suggested that anyone add to the word of God. What I did suggest was that one read the bible and replace the references of "Word of God", "Word of the Lord", "The Word" with the bible and see how silly it sounds. If the bible is the word of God as you say then it is not adding or taking away but a proper translation e.g. bible=word of God. I am not suggesting that the bible be changed in anyway I am suggesting that to refer to it as the word of God is incorrect.

Out of topic. The Bible is the Word of God, and we are discussing water baptism according to that Word of God. I don't have any other place to look for the real meaning of water baptism other than the Bible. So be serious and begin to show us from the Bible what you think water baptism is.

Again I know what inspiration means.

Saying that you know doesn't mean that you really know. We have seen that you don't.

I have no Islamic definition and I find that statement rather insulting.

Yes, you have. You already told us that you don't know what the islamic definition is. So I advise you to go learn a little about the islamic definition of the Word of God, and you will see that you have the same definition.

So it's not insulting. I am just telling you what you believe. If you think that what you believe is so bad that it is an insult to tell you what you believe, then change your belief.

You can not show me that Jesus said the bible is the word of God because he did not say this, you can't show me that the disciples said this either because they did not do so. You can only reference one scipture that is fromt he apostle Paul that says "all scripture is inspired" Please notice it says all scripture not the bible. The bible is not "all scripture" there were other scriptures that existed at the time of the letter from Paul that would have been included in this statement and many of those which are in the bible had not yet been written so would not have been covered, unless Paul meant it as all scripture past present and future in which case it opens up the door to many many writings which are not in the bible as being scripture or as you interpret it the word of God.

1. Scripture = Bible.

2. Go learn a little about the canon of Scripture.

As for now, we are discussing the water baptism, so I don't have time to explain to you those details.

No I do not want any such thing, I do not believe that the bible is the word of God because the bible itself says otherwise and only traditions of men say that it is.

Jesus quoted many passages of the Bible as the Word of God. And His Apostles told us that the whole Scripture is the Word of God.

If you don't want to accept what the Bible says, then you are free. Go open another thread and discuss your views. Here, we are studying water baptism. Do you mind if we want to stay in that topic?

The bible says something to that effect regaurding prophecy. It does not indicate that it refers to anything other than the prophets.

And here we see that you also don't know what the Bible means by the word "prophet".

Anyway, that's another topic.

Again I am insulted.. If they believe that the words the bible uses which say God said is from God and the ones that say Peter said is from Peter then they are correct. That is what the bible says and that is the proper understanding of it. I will ask that you stop comparing me to other religions as I certianly am not Muslim.

Who said that you are a Muslim? I only said that you agree with them on the definition of what the Word of God is. But that's not the biblical meaning of what the written Word of God is.

If I want to be? Who are you to decide who is a Christain and who is not, I'll have you know that I am and I do not worship a book as God, The bible is a collection of writings compiled and translated by men into a bound text which we now know as the bible. You can preach all you want but the facts are the facts.

1. It's not me who decides who is a Christian. The Bible decides. And as you don't agree with the Bible, then I have reason to doubt.

2. Christians do not worship the written Word of God, but the Word of God.

Yes thought to be inspired by God. In other words a group of men got together with hundreds on writings and they decided which ones were inspired [or which ones that they thought were inspired] and which ones should be destroyed.

Wrong information.

It could be read that way, perhaps even correctly but this is far from saying that our bibles are the word of God or that all of scripture is the word of God or any other such thing.

You don't just throw nonesense, but you don't even accept the evidence when it is given to you. I understand you; you don't want the authority of Scripture, because it is a divine authority.

Who said I was sinning against the word of God?

The Word of God said it.

The word of God is spirit, not paper and ink.

I totally agree with you. And as this Word of God is written on paper by ink, then that paper contains the Word of God. Simple.

I think it is wrong to use the phrase "word of God" with talking about the bible and I will say so openly. There is no sin in stating the truth of this matter.

You are stating your own opinion, and not the truth. And what you say is contradicting what the Bible says about itself. This means that you are actually saying that the Bible is lying ( is saying a lie, and not the truth ) . This is your sin. So wake up.

Water Baptism is a ritual.. fact not opinion.
If water baptism is a requirement for salvation then salvation depends on a man.. fact not opinion.

I don't see any Word from God in your reply. So I may accept it or not accept it. You don't have a divine authority.

Thank you for your opinion about water baptism.

Have a nice time.

YAQUBOS

Emmy · Jul 12, 2007

Dear ChrisBot. Yes, baptism with the Holy Spirit. Jesus told Nicodemus, " you must be born again," to become a new person, and be baptised with the Holy Spirit. Paul called to be a New Man, to learn to love God with all our hearts, all our souls, and all our minds. Also love each other as we love ourselves, or those dearest to us. Repent of our old selfish and non-caring life, and become new men and women, who love selflessly and care truly about our fellow-beings. Jesus will help and guide us, as he has been doing for ca. 2000 years. When we are baptised with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of our Saviour, we will want to be sons and daughters of God, our Heavenly Father. I say this humbly and with love, ChrisBot, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Soul Searcher · Jul 12, 2007

YAQUBOS said:
1. No, you don't know what inspiration means in the biblical context.

What you really mean is that I do not understand the same way as you do.

2. You are out of the topic of this thread.

As I recall I made a comment regaurding something someone else said and you challenged me on it to which I have been responding to your challenges. You are out of topic as much as I am and in effect forcing me to continue this line of conversation with your challenges.

1. We have the originals represented by all the manuscripts that we have => we can know what were the originals.

We do not have the originals period. We have some copies of copies ... that are of a much later date than would be the originals and I do not know of any which do not contian some form of error.

2. The inerrancy of the Scripture has nothing to do with the education of the people of that time, because God is the real author of it.

God did not write the bible.

3. You are out of the topic of this thread.

As are you, you question or challenge and I responded. If you do not want the response do not present the challenge

1. What you say is totally wrong and proves that you know nothing about what infallible means. If I tell you something that is totally right, but you don't understand it, this doesn't mean that I didn't say it right.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source in·fal·li·ble (ĭn-fāl'ə-bəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.
Roman Catholic Church Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.

The bible does have errors, proving that it is capable of erring, people misinterpret scriptures all the time proving that it is fallible.

2. You are again out of the topic of this thread. I remind you: this thread is about the importance of water baptism.

And I remind you that I have merely been responding to what you have said.

Out of topic. The Bible is the Word of God, and we are discussing water baptism according to that Word of God. I don't have any other place to look for the real meaning of water baptism other than the Bible. So be serious and begin to show us from the Bible what you think water baptism is.

Again I remind you that this discourse was initiated by you after I had made a brief comment about the Word of God not being a book.

Now we can agree to disagree on the subject if you like but if you persist in challenging me or telling me that I do not know what I am talking about I will respond. It is up to you.

As I said before water baptism is a ritual. It is not required for salvation of anyone.

Saying that you know doesn't mean that you really know. We have seen that you don't.

I know that it is a ritual and I know that nothing in the bibel indicates our salvation lays in the hands of a 3rd party. It is between us and Jesus/God, no other man need dip us in water, sprinkle us or any other such thing.

Yes, you have. You already told us that you don't know what the islamic definition is. So I advise you to go learn a little about the islamic definition of the Word of God, and you will see that you have the same definition.

It doesn't matter if I do or not.. frankly I could care less and am insulted that you keep bringing this up, as you are so find of saying you are off topic and over the line.

So it's not insulting. I am just telling you what you believe. If you think that what you believe is so bad that it is an insult to tell you what you believe, then change your belief.

If a person feels insulted by a statement it is insulting to that person. I do not think what I believe is bad at all I think it is accurate and if others believe it then fine but you seem to be using Islam as a way to get a dig in and I am offended by such usage.

1. Scripture = Bible.

No.. scripture is holy writing.. many say it means bible those people are wrong, while the bible is also scripture it is not the only thing that is. I would also add that When Paul said all scripture the bible as we know it did not exist so he certianly wasn't referring to the book we call the bible and quite likely would have been referring to the book of Enoch as well as some of the books which did make it into our bibles. I also think that it would be very unlikely that Paul considered his onw letters to be scripture.

2. Go learn a little about the canon of Scripture.

I would venture to guess that I have probabley already learned much more about it than you can imagion.

YAQUBOS · Jul 12, 2007

Emmy said:
Dear ChrisBot. Yes, baptism with the Holy Spirit. Jesus told Nicodemus, " you must be born again," to become a new person, and be baptised with the Holy Spirit. Paul called to be a New Man, to learn to love God with all our hearts, all our souls, and all our minds. Also love each other as we love ourselves, or those dearest to us. Repent of our old selfish and non-caring life, and become new men and women, who love selflessly and care truly about our fellow-beings. Jesus will help and guide us, as he has been doing for ca. 2000 years. When we are baptised with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of our Saviour, we will want to be sons and daughters of God, our Heavenly Father. I say this humbly and with love, ChrisBot, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Was the thief on the cross baptized with the Holy Spirit? How was he saved?

Soul Searcher · Jul 12, 2007

Could it have been...

Jesus: "Father forgive them they know not what they do."

YAQUBOS · Jul 12, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
What you really mean is that I do not understand the same way as you do.

No, that's not what I mean.

As I recall I made a comment regaurding something someone else said and you challenged me on it to which I have been responding to your challenges. You are out of topic as much as I am and in effect forcing me to continue this line of conversation with your challenges.

I just told you about the authority of Scripture so that you may not begin to tell us some dreams about baptism, but use the Bible in your argument. Or else we will consider all what you say as just your personal opinion. And your personal opinion is not divine.

But you refused that, and began a long argument about your views. So go discuss your views in the appropriate thread.

We do not have the originals period. We have some copies of copies ... that are of a much later date than would be the originals and I do not know of any which do not contian some form of error.

We KNOW the originals period. And I don't have time to explain to you about that here. Go open a thread about it.

God did not write the bible.

That's your personal opinion. And your opinion is not divine.

As are you, you question or challenge and I responded. If you do not want the response do not present the challenge

I want the response in the context of water baptism. Quote the Bible about water baptism. If you don't want to quote it as the Word of God, then simply give your personal opinion about water baptism. We are not discussing the authority of Scripture here.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source in·fal·li·ble (ĭn-fāl'ə-bəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.
Roman Catholic Church Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.

The bible does have errors, proving that it is capable of erring, people misinterpret scriptures all the time proving that it is fallible.

Where did you read this in that dictionary?

Again: go back to our topic, please.

And I remind you that I have merely been responding to what you have said.

You're losing our time. I accept what the Bible says about itself, so I answer about water baptism using the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible is the written Word of God, then give us your personal opinion. End of the matter.

Again I remind you that this discourse was initiated by you after I had made a brief comment about the Word of God not being a book.

And why did you argue? If you think I am wrong, then just give your personal opinion about water baptism. Because, if I am wrong, this means the Bible is not the written Word of God, and so you just give your personal opinion that is not the truth of God as revealed in Inspiration.

Now we can agree to disagree on the subject if you like but if you persist in challenging me or telling me that I do not know what I am talking about I will respond. It is up to you.

You don't know what you are talking about. So go challenge in another thread. If you think otherwise, then please quote the Word of God about water baptism. If you can't, then tell us your personal HUMAN opinion.

Is this so difficult?

As I said before water baptism is a ritual. It is not required for salvation of anyone.

Beautiful human opinion. But who told you this is the truth?

I know that it is a ritual and I know that nothing in the bibel indicates our salvation lays in the hands of a 3rd party.

Why are you referring to the Bible? What authority does it have in this matter? Why don't you refer to the Qur'an, for example?

It is between us and Jesus/God, no other man need dip us in water, sprinkle us or any other such thing.

Who told you this?

Please, give us something that has divine authority.

Thank you.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Jul 12, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
It doesn't matter if I do or not.. frankly I could care less and am insulted that you keep bringing this up, as you are so find of saying you are off topic and over the line.

Ok, then go learn about what Muslims say about the Word of God.

If a person feels insulted by a statement it is insulting to that person. I do not think what I believe is bad at all I think it is accurate and if others believe it then fine but you seem to be using Islam as a way to get a dig in and I am offended by such usage.

I just told you that Muslims believe like you. Isn't it good company?

No.. scripture is holy writing.. many say it means bible those people are wrong, while the bible is also scripture it is not the only thing that is. I would also add that When Paul said all scripture the bible as we know it did not exist so he certianly wasn't referring to the book we call the bible and quite likely would have been referring to the book of Enoch as well as some of the books which did make it into our bibles. I also think that it would be very unlikely that Paul considered his onw letters to be scripture.

1. Scripture = Bible = The Book.

2. Paul considered his writings Scripture, and so did Peter. I don't have time here to explain it to you. Go read the Bible.

I would venture to guess that I have probabley already learned much more about it than you can imagion.

No need to imagine. We are seeing it in this thread.

Have a nice time.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Jul 12, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
Could it have been...

Jesus: "Father forgive them they know not what they do."

If you are answering me about the baptism with the Holy Spirit, then I guess you need to know that this baptism happened 50 days after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, long after the thief was DEAD.

Have a nice time.

Soul Searcher · Jul 12, 2007

YAQUBOS said:
No, that's not what I mean.

Whatever. You understand it to mean one thing based on your own personal bias. I understand it based on what it actually is intended to mean in our language and the language it was written in, I read the text and I see that it is referring to something different than what you see. In your mind you are right. In my mind I am right. That doesn't mean that you are right nor does it mean that I am right we could very well both be wrong here. The difference is that I am willing to admit it.

I just told you about the authority of Scripture so that you may not begin to tell us some dreams about baptism, but use the Bible in your argument. Or else we will consider all what you say as just your personal opinion. And your personal opinion is not divine.

But you refused that, and began a long argument about your views. So go discuss your views in the appropriate thread.

So you know everything. I am starting to think that you have yet to learn how little any of us really know.

We KNOW the originals period. And I don't have time to explain to you about that here. Go open a thread about it.

No we do not know the originals, none of us have ever laid eyes on them and please don't try to tell me we have because I know better. I wasn't born yesterday.

I want the response in the context of water baptism. Quote the Bible about water baptism. If you don't want to quote it as the Word of God, then simply give your personal opinion about water baptism. We are not discussing the authority of Scripture here.

I did give you a response about water baptism and I did so before you questioned me. It is not required, there is nothing more that needs to be said in answer to the op.

Where did you read this in that dictionary?

Again: go back to our topic, please.

You keep asking me to go back to the topic yet you keep pulling us away from it.. which is it that you want. It is starting to sound like you just want the last word on topic or off.

You're losing our time. I accept what the Bible says about itself, so I answer about water baptism using the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible is the written Word of God, then give us your personal opinion. End of the matter.

The bible does not say anything about itself.

You don't know what you are talking about. So go challenge in another thread. If you think otherwise, then please quote the Word of God about water baptism. If you can't, then tell us your personal HUMAN opinion.

I know that the Word of God is defined in the bible as spirit and that it is not defined as "the bible"

Beautiful human opinion. But who told you this is the truth?

It is easily concluded by actually reading the bible.

Why are you referring to the Bible? What authority does it have in this matter? Why don't you refer to the Qur'an, for example?

Again with the Islamic references.. I gave you the benift of a doubt to start but now it is clear that you are just trying to inflame the situtation.

You can believe what ever you want, say whatever you want from here on. I see no reason to talk with you any farther.

YAQUBOS · Jul 12, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
Whatever. You understand it to mean one thing based on your own personal bias. I understand it based on what it actually is intended to mean in our language and the language it was written in, I read the text and I see that it is referring to something different than what you see. In your mind you are right. In my mind I am right. That doesn't mean that you are right nor does it mean that I am right we could very well both be wrong here. The difference is that I am willing to admit it.

Only God is right. The difference between you and me is that I accept what God says in His Word.

So you know everything. I am starting to think that you have yet to learn how little any of us really know.

Ok. Let's know the truth. And Jesus said that the Word of God is the truth.

No we do not know the originals, none of us have ever laid eyes on them and please don't try to tell me we have because I know better. I wasn't born yesterday.

We know. Just as we can know what the original letter of a person was by reading the different copies of that letter made by different people.

I did give you a response about water baptism and I did so before you questioned me. It is not required, there is nothing more that needs to be said in answer to the op.

And I have read your OPINION. I am now waiting to see if you can prove that your opinion is the truth.

You keep asking me to go back to the topic yet you keep pulling us away from it.. which is it that you want. It is starting to sound like you just want the last word on topic or off.

Let's talk about water baptism.

The bible does not say anything about itself.

It does. Read it, and you will see.

I know that the Word of God is defined in the bible as spirit and that it is not defined as "the bible"

And how does the Bible define "spirit" ?

It is easily concluded by actually reading the bible.

1. Show me.

2. Why the Bible, and not the Qur'an?

Again with the Islamic references.. I gave you the benift of a doubt to start but now it is clear that you are just trying to inflame the situtation.

Ok ok Don't get angry. Why do you mention the Bible, and not the Talmud ?

You can believe what ever you want, say whatever you want from here on. I see no reason to talk with you any farther.

I knew this.

Have a nice time.

YAQUBOS

evangelist · Sep 13, 2007

AngelusSax said:
Perhaps water Baptism, with just water. But I am referring to Baptism of the Holy Spirit... and I do believe God's Grace extends beyond this.

I can agree with accepting God... it's when people say they choose God that I take issue, as I hold god chooses us, and we can either accept or reject (and I believe there is no age limit for what is written on a heart).

A Infantt can't repent or believe and teach.
If you want to use all nations, then we must include our pet cats and dogs which belone also to the nation, and our households.
Do you think we need to baptized animals we own????

evangelist · Sep 13, 2007

YAQUBOS said:
Only God is right. The difference between you and me is that I accept what God says in His Word.

Ok. Let's know the truth. And Jesus said that the Word of God is the truth.

We know. Just as we can know what the original letter of a person was by reading the different copies of that letter made by different people.

And I have read your OPINION. I am now waiting to see if you can prove that your opinion is the truth.

Let's talk about water baptism.

It does. Read it, and you will see.

And how does the Bible define "spirit" ?

1. Show me.

2. Why the Bible, and not the Qur'an?

Ok ok Don't get angry. Why do you mention the Bible, and not the Talmud ?

I knew this.

Have a nice time.

YAQUBOS

This is a awesome post and great responce to that Muslim.
After facing them with the truth they can only run like when rebuke demons.
I am not calling these muslims demons but the spirit of demonic spirits are in them.They are decieved , and don't have any source of salvation and are lost untill they get free from Islam.
They have no relationship and don't know it with their own god al-lat, which is a pagan moon god .

Shalom

YAQUBOS · Sep 13, 2007

evangelist said:
A Infantt can't repent or believe and teach.
If you want to use all nations, then we must include our pet cats and dogs which belone also to the nation, and our households.
Do you think we need to baptized animals we own????

1. Infants not being able to repent has nothing to do with water baptism.

2. Animals do not have a spirit and a spiritual relation with God.

YAQUBOS

PattyOfurniture · Sep 13, 2007

evangelist said:
A Infantt can't repent or believe and teach.
If you want to use all nations, then we must include our pet cats and dogs which belone also to the nation, and our households.
Do you think we need to baptized animals we own????

Brother,I think the word translated "Nations"is ethnos in the greek .or ethnic groups....

KCDAD · Sep 15, 2007

YAQUBOS said:
Well,...
Ok...

Do you know what you are talking about?

That's also what I am saying. The word "Bible" is not the Word of God. What is contained in THE Bible is the Word of God.

No, it is wholly and in each word the Word of God.

If you have any problem understanding what "Inspiration" means, then that's another matter. Because you are talking about the Word of God in the same way a Muslim talks about it. A Muslim thinks that a word must be said directly BY God as the person talking, or else it is not the Word of God. But we are not Muslims. We are not talking about the Qur'an. We are talking about the Bible, and this Bible is the inspired written Word of God. So each word in it is the Word of God, although not all words are what God is saying to someone in particular in the context.

This is what unbelievers do not believe.

N.B.: This thread is about water baptism. So can we talk about that?

Water baptism... oh, the communistic take over of the priestly ritual to prepare the priest for entry into the Holy of Holies? yeah... let's talk about that. We don't want to go someplace where you don't know anything, like scriptural authority or authenticity.
Did you mean to sound like a racist when you insulted approximately 1/3 of the population of the world? How do you know there aren't some Muslims who are also believers in "inspiration" and not direct dictation.

Water baptism: symbolic act representing the ablution rites of the chief priests in preparing the sinful man to enter into the presence of God. A further symbolic expression is that it is the preparatory cleansing of the body before the baptism of fire which is the metaphorical cleansing of the spirit.

The key words in this explanation are SYMBOLIC

YAQUBOS · Sep 17, 2007

KCDAD said:
Water baptism... oh, the communistic take over of the priestly ritual to prepare the priest for entry into the Holy of Holies? yeah... let's talk about that. We don't want to go someplace where you don't know anything, like scriptural authority or authenticity.

No, dear friend. I prefer to go to the Bible.

By the way: I am talking about water baptism, not about priests.

Did you mean to sound like a racist when you insulted approximately 1/3 of the population of the world? How do you know there aren't some Muslims who are also believers in "inspiration" and not direct dictation.

If they don't believe it's the word of allah, a word that DESCENDED from Heaven, then they are not Muslims, because the Qur'an says it.

N.B.: No, I didn't mean to insult anyone. It's to insult a Muslim if you say that he believes in Inspiration.

Water baptism: symbolic act representing the ablution rites of the chief priests in preparing the sinful man to enter into the presence of God. A further symbolic expression is that it is the preparatory cleansing of the body before the baptism of fire which is the metaphorical cleansing of the spirit.

The key words in this explanation are SYMBOLIC

Off topic.

YAQUBOS

KCDAD · Sep 17, 2007

YAQUBOS said:
No, dear friend. I prefer to go to the Bible.

By the way: I am talking about water baptism, not about priests.

If they don't believe it's the word of allah, a word that DESCENDED from Heaven, then they are not Muslims, because the Qur'an says it.

N.B.: No, I didn't mean to insult anyone. It's to insult a Muslim if you say that he believes in Inspiration.

Off topic.

YAQUBOS

So you want the Biblical interpretation of baptism... How come it was invented in 30AD? This is about the same time hell seems to have been invented.... what do you think about that and your unchanging God?

PattyOfurniture · Sep 17, 2007

Hebrews 9:10 tells us that Baptism was an Old Testament thingy.....

KCDAD · Sep 17, 2007

PattyOfurniture said:
Hebrews 9:10 tells us that Baptism was an Old Testament thingy.....

Perhaps so, but the Old Testament thingy was nothing like the New Testament thingy.

Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

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