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I have no reason to doubt that you are a regenerate believer. So with that presumption, allow me to pose a direct question to you. Please answer it as you would answer for yourself; not how someone else might supposedly answer it. My question to you is:
If you were forced to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast, would you take it? As far as I can determine you have 3 options:
#1. Yes, you would take it because as a believer you are secure in your salvation and can never lose it.
#2. No, you would not take it because of the consequences spelled out in Rev 14:9-11
#3. Yes, you would take it but that would mean that you were never a believer in the first place.
If you choose option #1, at least you are perfectly consistent in your belief however it goes against what Scripture teaches happens to anyone who accepts the mark.
If you choose option #2, it nullifies your belief that you being a regenerate believer, can never lose your salvation.
If you choose option #3, I imagine that would be unsettling to you as I'm sure you consider yourself to presently be a genuine believer.
And if you answer that this question is irrelevant by claiming that the saints aren't around on the earth at that time because you you are a preterist or they are all raptured to heaven, do not neglect to notice Rev 14:12 "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." Whether these are the church-age saints or the tribulation saints is subject to another debate but the fact remains the saints are referenced in this context and are admonished to endure, obey and remain faithful to Jesus rather than worship the beast and accept the mark. Lastly if you claim that under no circumstance you are certain without a doubt, that you would never accept the mark of the beast, how would you know for sure what you would do or not do in the future, especially under extreme duress/persecution? Even Peter who saw Jesus face-to-face and walked with him daily, was absolutely certain than he would never deny the Lord - but we all know what happened to Peter.
Friend , you clearly do not know what you speak of and have bitterness in you're heart.Yeah because God would warn an entire culture of being cut off but not individuals. Clearly donald Trump will read out that verse to CNN and everyone will repent.
Do you really think God is that dense? These warnings are for us as individuals.
I bet you think 2 Peter 2:19-22 is talking about a cultural thing too.
SMH
I'm closer than you know to that same sentiment. But I came to realize that my hope had been in what I was taught, and in the people I had loved as the members of the Bride of Christ. I felt betrayed by them, but realized that God himself had not betrayed me, and that it was still all as he planned it. My "falling away" was by my own assessment --not his.Yeah unfortunately I am a bit bitter about this because I fell away after becoming a Christian and I feel like all I am capable of is dead faith. I don't think there's anything left for me.
I feel like no matter if I put faith in Christ it won't matter because God isn't enabling me to have true faith.
Friend , you clearly do not know what you speak of and have bitterness in you're heart.
You are all over the place and not making much sense at all.
And , once again you presume to know what I think regarding matters that I haven't even spoke about yet.
You might want to stop doing that.
And, you also might want to stop mimicking.
Seriously.
I'm closer than you know to that same sentiment. But I came to realize that my hope had been in what I was taught, and in the people I had loved as the members of the Bride of Christ. I felt betrayed by them, but realized that God himself had not betrayed me, and that it was still all as he planned it. My "falling away" was by my own assessment --not his.
I still honestly don't know for sure that I am chosen by him, because of my continuing assessment of my sad performance and disobedience. But I know this, that if faith is real, it is not by my effort, but his. And there is where my confidence is. He will not fail.
Friend , the saints in Revelation 14:12 isn't the past saints nor the present saints.I have no reason to doubt that you are a regenerate believer. So with that presumption, allow me to pose a direct question to you. Please answer it as you would answer for yourself; not how someone else might supposedly answer it. My question to you is:
If you were forced to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast, would you take it? As far as I can determine you have 3 options:
#1. Yes, you would take it because as a believer you are secure in your salvation and can never lose it.
#2. No, you would not take it because of the consequences spelled out in Rev 14:9-11
#3. Yes, you would take it but that would mean that you were never a believer in the first place.
If you choose option #1, at least you are perfectly consistent in your belief however it goes against what Scripture teaches happens to anyone who accepts the mark.
If you choose option #2, it nullifies your belief that you being a regenerate believer, can never lose your salvation.
If you choose option #3, I imagine that would be unsettling to you as I'm sure you consider yourself to presently be a genuine believer.
And if you answer that this question is irrelevant by claiming that the saints aren't around on the earth at that time because you you are a preterist or they are all raptured to heaven, do not neglect to notice Rev 14:12 "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." Whether these are the church-age saints or the tribulation saints is subject to another debate but the fact remains the saints are referenced in this context and are admonished to endure, obey and remain faithful to Jesus rather than worship the beast and accept the mark. Lastly if you claim that under no circumstance you are certain without a doubt, that you would never accept the mark of the beast, how would you know for sure what you would do or not do in the future, especially under extreme duress/persecution? Even Peter who saw Jesus face-to-face and walked with him daily, was absolutely certain than he would never deny the Lord - but we all know what happened to Peter.
Friend now you are being delusional and obviously want to argue like a little child not getting his way.You're wrong, get over it. I made plenty of sense, you just rejected it. You rejected God's word and that's a very dangerous thing.
What were you saying about mickmicking?
I also have to say that God is more patient and gentle than anyone I have ever met. He ripped away my hopes (and for that I thank him), but did not do to me as my deeds deserved. I have wished he would kill me and get it over with, but he has plans, and is keeping me here for his own reasons --not mine.Yeah unfortunately I am a bit bitter about this because I fell away after becoming a Christian and I feel like all I am capable of is dead faith. I don't think there's anything left for me.
I feel like no matter if I put faith in Christ it won't matter because God isn't enabling me to have true faith.
Friend now you are being delusional and obviously want to argue like a little child not getting his way.
You CLEARLY are the one who is wrong (on multiple accounts) within this thread.
And you haven't made any sense whatsoever.
And I haven't rejected any truths provided to me from you in its context because you haven't done so.
Apparently you have an axe to grind.
Go somewhere else , because I don't have time for you're nonsensical games .
I also have to say that God is more patient and gentle than anyone I have ever met. He ripped away my hopes (and for that I thank him), but did not do to me as my deeds deserved. I have wished he would kill me and get it over with, but he has plans, and is keeping me here for his own reasons --not mine.
"A bruised reed he will not break; a smoldering wick he will not snuff out."
Read Hebrews 6, noticing that the discussion re "falling away" begins in vs 4 with "it is impossible." Don't draw conclusions on the passage --that is a habit of short sighted people --but read it and follow its logic. Then take a look at Thomas Blackshear's picture "Forgiven". That man is me; notice what he is holding in his hands, and who is holding him up after he has worn himself out.
I think you are my brother. I love you.Only time will tell. It doesn't look very hopeful for me.
You seem pretty annoyed for someone who "won" an argument. Either way I'm not seeing Christ in any of your posts.
Glad you recovered. Hope I follow your footsteps.
Friend , ditto.You seem pretty annoyed for someone who "won" an argument. Either way I'm not seeing Christ in any of your posts.
Glad you recovered. Hope I follow your footsteps.
Have you ever been so low you just didn't care anymore? Have you found yourself saying things you know are against God because you need him to set you right, just so you know he still sees and cares?Friend , ditto.
Maybe the problem is trying to be a self made man rather a new creature in Christ.
You obviously want to argue, then accuse the other of not being Christ-like.
Give me a break , I'm no stranger to the rain friend.
You cherry pick verses completely and clearly out of context, become clearly obnoxious towards others and then have the audacity to say , " I'm not seeing Christ in any of your posts".
Maybe because you reject His Word as you have multiple times in this thread alone.
Stop playing games.
Yes to the first question.Have you ever been so low you just didn't care anymore? Have you found yourself saying things you know are against God because you need him to set you right, just so you know he still sees and cares?
Friend , ditto.
Maybe the problem is trying to be a self made man rather a new creature in Christ.
You obviously want to argue, then accuse the other of not being Christ-like.
Give me a break , I'm no stranger to the rain friend.
You cherry pick verses completely and clearly out of context, become clearly obnoxious towards others and then have the audacity to say , " I'm not seeing Christ in any of your posts".
Maybe because you reject His Word as you have multiple times in this thread alone.
Stop playing games.
I haven't recovered, or that is, I will be recovering the rest of my life.
FWIW --I hate false hope. My only confidence now is in God accomplishing whatever he has in mind. That much makes perfect sense to me.
Yes go right ahead. The problem with these kinds of discussions are that Christians (not excluding myself) are usually intractable in their doctrinal beliefs as we tend to cling to what we've been taught. It is difficult to unlearn what we first learned. I suppose that is human nature. So at best in the end, we usually just agree to disagree and everything remains just hypothetical or theoretical in our doctrinal debates. I've employed this practical scenario in the past and those who adhere to eternal security are reluctant to answer because of the obvious bind that it puts them in. They either attempt to answer based on what someone else would do or they avoid answering directly by claiming that they would never accept the mark for themselves and at that point the discussion usually ceases.That is the best rebuttal I've ever seen. Mind if I steal it for another time?
Peter made the same claim that he would never deny the Lord. His example is there in Scripture for a reason - so that we don't follow in his footsteps. Respectfully, I suggest you not make the same mistake.Friend , the saints in Revelation 14:12 isn't the past saints nor the present saints.
That message is for the believers in Christ who received Christ during the tribulation.
I will not be here .
I am a child of the King of kings and Lord of lords.
Even (hypothetically) if I was present during the tribulation (which I will not be) it would be impossible for me to receive the mark of the Beast.
I am sealed by the blood of the crucified One.
Amen!!!
⚘
There is no mistake for me to make regarding taking the mark of the Beast.Peter made the same claim that he would never deny the Lord. His example is there in Scripture for a reason - so that we don't follow in his footsteps. Respectfully, I suggest you not make the same mistake.
Yes go right ahead. The problem with these kinds of discussions are that Christians (not excluding myself) are usually intractable in their doctrinal beliefs as we tend to cling to what we've been taught. It is difficult to unlearn what we first learned. I suppose that is human nature. So at best in the end, we usually just agree to disagree and everything remains just hypothetical or theoretical in our doctrinal debates. I've employed this practical scenario in the past and those who adhere to eternal security are reluctant to answer because of the obvious bind that it puts them in. They either attempt to answer based on what someone else would do or they avoid answering directly by claiming that they would never accept the mark for themselves and at that point the discussion usually ceases.
If one is truly saved by Jesus the Christ and His redemptive work on The Cross of Calvary then they cannot EVER LOSE they're salvation EVER.Sorry but I have to disagree. I believe that people who "believe" in eternal security KNOW they are wrong and not scriptural. They are just in a state of deliberate denial. That's why they will never be convinced.
I used to believe in OSAS but I quickly learned why that is incorrect through experience and scripture. People who teach OSAS either are afraid of losing salvation so they deny it entirely or they have something to sell.
I still love your amazing worse-case-scenario that blows the OSAS "theory" out of the water. Saved your post on that.
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