Is abortion better than the alternative?

Crashfreak · Mar 9, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
I disagree that abortion is murder. Yes yes I know all the "Taking the life of a defenseless baby" and that whole song and dance, but murder is, 9 times out of 10, a planned act of destruction that benefits no one. Abortion can save the mother's life so she may eventually bear annother child,

If this were the case then it would be understandable, unfortunately around 80% or more abortions are due to a mother considering it inconvient, not because of birth difficulties (ie the mother may die), or rape.

Antoninus Verus said:
spare a child from being raised in an abusive home

You are right, we should probably kill those children currently living in an abusive home, as this would spare them being raised in an abusive home.

Antoninus Verus said:
spare families extra grief,

Really is that an argument, it causes a family grief. Again this is just seemed as inconvient to the parent(s). These people should take responsibility for their actions....if you don't want a child, don't have sex or at least use protection.

Antoninus Verus said:
spare taxpayers extra money,

Really? It would be better to destroy a life than to lose a bit of money in a country that has so much wealth already.

Antoninus Verus said:
lower the ammount of children in orphanages.

Compared to most other countries this wouldn't even be considered a problem. Again the child should be given the chance of life, rather than just destroyed because society feels that it would a burden on their already comfortable lives.

Antoninus Verus · Mar 9, 2005

If this were the case then it would be understandable, unfortunately around 80% or more abortions are due to a mother considering it inconvient, not because of birth difficulties (ie the mother may die), or rape.

Un-wanted children often are born into homes that dont want them and usually arent ready for them which makes for a rough childhood. Not always is this true.

You are right, we should probably kill those children currently living in an abusive home, as this would spare them being raised in an abusive home.

You need'nt be sarcastic. Im saying that its better for a child to be born into a loving, caring family rather than one that will resent the child's prescense and see it more as a burden than a blessing. And if its possible to do that before the child is born, so much the better

Really is that an argument, it causes a family grief. Again this is just seemed as inconvient to the parent(s). These people should take responsibility for their actions....if you don't want a child, don't have sex or at least use protection

In most cases I agree with you. Not all, but most

Really? It would be better to destroy a life than to lose a bit of money in a country that has so much wealth already.

If we have so much money, then why are we 7 trillion dollars in debt?

Compared to most other countries this wouldn't even be considered a problem. Again the child should be given the chance of life, rather than just destroyed because society feels that it would a burden on their already comfortable lives.

Have you ever been to an orphanage?

kdet · Mar 9, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Un-wanted children often are born into homes that dont want them and usually arent ready for them which makes for a rough childhood. Not always is this true.

You need'nt be sarcastic. Im saying that its better for a child to be born into a loving, caring family rather than one that will resent the child's prescense and see it more as a burden than a blessing. And if its possible to do that before the child is born, so much the better

In most cases I agree with you. Not all, but most

If we have so much money, then why are we 7 trillion dollars in debt?

Have you ever been to an orphanage?

Unwanted children would still rather be alive than dead, I'm sure.

BarbB · Mar 9, 2005

Antonius, are you glad that your mother did not abort you?

Most abortions are for convenience. Few are from rape or health problems. Back alley abortions were mostly done in doctor's offices for cash. Any problems ended up in the hospital. Deaths were in the 10's per year. Get a grip folks, Planned Parenthood cooked the books and still does.

Crashfreak · Mar 9, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Un-wanted children often are born into homes that dont want them and usually arent ready for them which makes for a rough childhood. Not always is this true.

Well I would say to those people either don't have sex or use protection in some form (preferably birth control). If you want to have sex then accept the responsibilities for your actions.

Antoninus Verus said:
You need'nt be sarcastic. Im saying that its better for a child to be born into a loving, caring family rather than one that will resent the child's prescense and see it more as a burden than a blessing. And if its possible to do that before the child is born, so much the better

I do opologize for being sarcastic....I know I get irritated with people who do it to me....so I am very sorry.

Antoninus Verus said:
If we have so much money, then why are we 7 trillion dollars in debt?

Well I don't think that is caused by issues noted in this debate/argument. However even so, the US is still a lot more wealthy than most nations. And I think the reason why the country is 7 trillion in debt is a different topic.

Antoninus Verus said:
Have you ever been to an orphanage?

If you are asking if I have been a orphan, then the answer is no. As for going to an Orphanage...yes my father worked in that area and I often helped him. Mind you this was in South Africa (where I spent 22 years of my life) and we would frequent AIDS orphanages and help were we could. Holding kids that you know have no chance of survival and already have had to deal with the death of their parent(s). It is heartbreaking. So yes I have been to an orphanage.

Lifesaver · Mar 9, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
I disagree that abortion is murder.

It must be pointed out that whether abortion is murder or not, in this particular case, is not a central question.
To allow thefts to go unpunished so that thieves have a less risky task ahead of them is just as absurd. And notice that in this case lives may actually be saved: a robber who wouldn't kill anyone may be killed by a cop; were robbing not banned, no-one would die.
And yet, that is not a very strong case for the legalization of robbery, is it?

Yes yes I know all the "Taking the life of a defenseless baby" and that whole song and dance, but murder is, 9 times out of 10, a planned act of destruction that benefits no one.

The murderer is benefited, from his own point of view. Or else he wouldn't be commiting murder.

Abortion can save the mother's life so she may eventually bear annother child, spare a child from being raised in an abusive home, spare families extra grief, spare taxpayers extra money, lower the ammount of children in orphanages.

All the things you cite, from men having to pay higher taxes to kids being raised in abusive homes, are bad things. However, it is not justifyable to kill someone in order to avoid any of them.

And really, Antoninus, think of what you are saying: kids who grow up in abusive homes have to put up with a lot of bad things, so it is better to just kill them before they are born.
First, this completely overlooks the fact that the life of a person who lived in an abusive home may still be a good one.
Secondly and more importantly, it is not up to anyone but the person herself to make the call whether their life is worth living or not. It is incredibly arrogant to kill someone because we deem their lives unworthy of being lived.

Sparing kids being raised in abusive homes is a strong argument in and of itself.

True, kids should be spared of being raised in abusive homes. But to kill them is even worse.

And yes I know its impossible to determine who will and will not become a murderer, but I think that sparing children from abusive relationships with a parent(s) is still a plus.

You are not sparing them of anything. You are taking away from them their most precious temporal good: life itself.
A parent who mistreats his child takes away a very important good from them: a healthy upbringing. But a healthy upbringing is subordinated to life itself. And if someone disagrees, let them make the choice for themselves, not for someone else.

Antoninus Verus · Mar 9, 2005

Unwanted children would still rather be alive than dead, I'm sure.

Are you an un-wanted child?

Most abortions are for convenience. Few are from rape or health problems. Back alley abortions were mostly done in doctor's offices for cash. Any problems ended up in the hospital. Deaths were in the 10's per year. Get a grip folks, Planned Parenthood cooked the books and still does.

Do you have any proof for YOUR claims? And If abortions were suddenly made illegal, back alley abortions would get MUCH higher both in number and in risk and errors wouldnt end up in the hospital for fear of prosecution.

Well I would say to those people either don't have sex or use protection in some form (preferably birth control). If you want to have sex then accept the responsibilities for your actions.

Do you honestly think people will do that?

Well I don't think that is caused by issues noted in this debate/argument. However even so, the US is still a lot more wealthy than most nations. And I think the reason why the country is 7 trillion in debt is a different topic.

My point is that we do not have money to be supporting a child from a troubled home in a correctional facility, orphanage, or through therapists and social service hours. As cold as it sounds.

It must be pointed out that whether abortion is murder or not, in this particular case, is not a central question.
To allow thefts to go unpunished so that thieves have a less risky task ahead of them is just as absurd. And notice that in this case lives may actually be saved: a robber who wouldn't kill anyone may be killed by a cop; were robbing not banned, no-one would die.
And yet, that is not a very strong case for the legalization of robbery, is it?

Robbery and abortion are TOTALLY different things, not even barley comparable.

You are not sparing them of anything. You are taking away from them their most precious temporal good: life itself.
A parent who mistreats his child takes away a very important good from them: a healthy upbringing. But a healthy upbringing is subordinated to life itself. And if someone disagrees, let them make the choice for themselves, not for someone else.

Ummm....how are you going to ask a baby if they want to be born or not?

Green Man · Mar 10, 2005

I heard this just last night.Brian Duprey,state rep.(R) Maine,with the backing of a major gay and lesbian group,has introduced a bill that would ban abortion for babies possessing the gay gene.I know science has not yet gotten to the point of identifying individual genes like this.This throws a whole new spin on things.Let's say a couple finds out their unborn baby will likely be gay,they'll have no choice but to have the baby.But you can't discriminate based on sex,that would be wrong.No matter who you back on this one,liberals lose.

ASLER86 · Mar 10, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Do you have any proof for YOUR claims? And If abortions were suddenly made illegal, back alley abortions would get MUCH higher both in number and in risk and errors wouldnt end up in the hospital for fear of prosecution.

Only 1% of abortions are performed because of rape
Only 1% of abortions are performed because of fetal abnormalities
Only 3% of abortions are performed because of mother's health problems
95% are because of convenience
(source: Central Illinois Right to Life)

According to the 2003-2004 Planned Parenthood Report-
They performed 6.1% more abortions this past year
For every 1 adoption referrel 138 abortions were performed
Nearly a quarter million abortions were performed in 12 months
(Source: lifeissues.org/pp/index.html)

And why I'm at it, although the growing problem may be a problem in other countries, it is not a big problem for the United States. According to census.gov there is a birth every 8 seconds and a death every 11, so the US is growing at a -1% every year, so we are in a population decline. (abortionfacts.com/abortion/q_facts.asp)

Approx 4000 abortions are performed each day in the United States alone amounting to over a million each year, and for every third birth an abortion is performed (abortionfacts.com)

*shrugs* just the facts....

Crashfreak · Mar 10, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Do you have any proof for YOUR claims? And If abortions were suddenly made illegal, back alley abortions would get MUCH higher both in number and in risk and errors wouldnt end up in the hospital for fear of prosecution.

So instead of stopping something because it isn't right, make it legal so that when they do do it, it will be easier for them. That is highly illogical.

Antoninus Verus said:
Do you honestly think people will do that?

No unfortunately we live in a time when people do not take responsibility for their actions. So instead of trying to force the issue the government just makes it easier for them to ignore the responsibility and destroy a child due to inconvenience (almost all of the time).

Antoninus Verus said:
My point is that we do not have money to be supporting a child from a troubled home in a correctional facility, orphanage, or through therapists and social service hours. As cold as it sounds.

But we do have money (roughly $160billion) to spend on war? I think our priorities should be our children, and not ourselves.

Antoninus Verus said:
Ummm....how are you going to ask a baby if they want to be born or not?

So your solution is not to ask, but simply destroy it and never give it the chance.

Lifesaver · Mar 10, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Robbery and abortion are TOTALLY different things, not even barley comparable.

You have misunderstood the argument, then. It is the logic behind the legalization that is relevant, and this is the same in all cases (abortion, murder, robbery). The nature of the crime doesn't matter much.

Ummm....how are you going to ask a baby if they want to be born or not?

You are not. And since you don't know the answer, better play it safe and give him the chance to choose for himself when he grows up.

gallykid08 · Mar 10, 2005

*sighs*

ok...well...i did a huge report on abortion..and yes i am definetly strongly pro-life now.

anyway...u might want to do research abt abortion lowering the amount of child abuse etc...it actually doesnt. child abused incidents actually INCREASED after abortion was legalized. for example, in New York city in the 60s there were 5,000 reported cases of child abuse. abortion was legalized in the 1970s. by 1975, there were over 25,000 reported cases. the numbers also increased for all of the usa in general.

only 2 percent of abortions are because of rape.

woman who have abortions often suffer from emotional and mental problems...there is an actual syndrome and its similiar to PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder).

physical problems can also occur, and can cause the mother to be NOT able to have anymore children.

there is also really no denying that a baby is human before it is born. if its not murder...then what is it?

babies can feel pain when in the womb..and abortion procedures are often extremely painful for the baby. ever see the movie clip The Scream? so not only is abortion most likely murder..but its also inhumane.

i wont go over everything here...it wld take up alot of space. but i encourage everyone no matter if they're pro choice or pro life to do some serious non-biased research to get the facts.

i've seen pictures of aborted babies too...not pretty. found them on the internet when doing research for my paper.

and what abt abortion survivors? they exist.

Antoninus Verus · Mar 10, 2005

Only 1% of abortions are performed because of rape
Only 1% of abortions are performed because of fetal abnormalities
Only 3% of abortions are performed because of mother's health problems
95% are because of convenience
(source: Central Illinois Right to Life)

According to the 2003-2004 Planned Parenthood Report-
They performed 6.1% more abortions this past year
For every 1 adoption referrel 138 abortions were performed
Nearly a quarter million abortions were performed in 12 months
(Source: lifeissues.org/pp/index.html)

Do you have any UNBIASED sources?

So instead of stopping something because it isn't right, make it legal so that when they do do it, it will be easier for them. That is highly illogical.

I dont think making abortion totally illegal is right, I think that totally forbidding it would be an even greater mistake than totally allowing it.

Consider this. Abortions are made totally illegal. A single mother seeks an abortion but becuase abortion is illegal, she has to go to a clinic that does that sort of procedure. But since abortion is illegal, so is the clinic. Therefore the clinic cant afford to draw attention to itself and cant purchase the proper tools needed to safely perform the procedure. The procedure fails and the baby is left deformed, the mother left with horrible scars and an infection she knows nothing about. 7 months later, the baby is born, but because the abortion failed, the baby has to be on a resperator to keep it alive. The mother's health has deteriorated as a result of the infection by this point and dies a few weeks after the child is born. Since the father split, the child has no one to care for it and is placed in an adoption home, deformed and alone.

Still think banning abortion TOTALLY is a good idea?

But we do have money (roughly $160billion) to spend on war? I think our priorities should be our children, and not ourselves.

I dont agree with the war. I dont agree with spending a dime on it.

So your solution is not to ask, but simply destroy it and never give it the chance.

As opposed to your solution of letting the child grow up in a potentially abusive home. Theres someone I want you to meet, I wish I could actually have you meet her. Tammy, age 14. Her mother got pregnant at 15 through carelessness and her dad split. Tammy's mother became an alchaholic to deal with the stress of a baby and has yet to kick the habbit, or even slow down. Tammy has never heard her mother tell her that she loves her, instead she hears her mother scream at her at night because she cant go out and party like she wants to. Tammy hasnt been to the doctor in 12 years and has more cuts on her arm than an entire mental ward put together.

Tammy is a good friend of mine and I love her like a sister, but when you see your friend sit there and beg for you to kill her...you question if it would have been better for her that her mother have reconsidered her decision to not have an abortion.

gallykid08 · Mar 10, 2005

so...what makes life life? being wanted? being ''normal''

medical technology is good enough that more and more doctors can save both the baby and mother.

and we shouldnt play god by deciding who can and who cant live.

and, verus...if you look one of that person's sources is from planned parenthood (a highly pro-choice org) and the other is from right to life (highly pro life source) so...seems like the info is unbiased to me. maybe each organization is biased...but doesnt mean the facts are.

Antoninus Verus · Mar 10, 2005

medical technology is good enough that more and more doctors can save both the baby and mother.

LEGAL medical procedures usually are, but not in all cases

and, verus...if you look one of that person's sources is from planned parenthood (a highly pro-choice org) and the other is from right to life (highly pro life source) so...seems like the info is unbiased to me. maybe each organization is biased...but doesnt mean the facts are.

Why not find information from an un-baised source, one that isnt pro ANYTHING. I reserve the right to question the source of any introduced facts within a reasonable limit to a debate

gallykid08 · Mar 10, 2005

i think instead of focusing on abortions...docs could focus on saving the lives of both baby and mother.

and of course u have a right to question facts. everyone does. and thats good.

and it is difficult to find unbiased sources. when that happens...then u look at both sides and their sources etc.

ASLER86 · Mar 10, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Do you have any UNBIASED sources?

Do you?

I don't think any sources are unbiased, they all swing to one way or another. If you know of any completely unbiased sources let me know, but I've read book after book and website after website and I haven't found anything.

The planned parenthood stats were based on their annual report, thats not very biased seeing as they're the ones putting it out (at least according to planned parenthood they aren't biased)
And just to let you know, I looked at the stats posted on the website and then doubled-checked them on Planned Parenthood's report and guess what--they add up (just so you know that I wasn't accepting blind facts)

And the other stats aren't made up, I've seen it in a variety of sources, not just the one I quoted.

Crashfreak · Mar 10, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Why not find information from an un-baised source, one that isnt pro ANYTHING. I reserve the right to question the source of any introduced facts within a reasonable limit to a debate

Almost all data I have found on facts given to why women have abortions agrees within a margin of error for the statistics that were given. I may not be looking hard enough but I haven't found in pro-choice website with any statistics on reasons why. However I have found both unbiased (if you can ever call something unbiased) and supposedly biased ones that say the same thing.

And you are right there are some cases where an abortion would save the life of a mother and there is nothing the doctors can do, but those are very few these days.

SallyNow · Mar 10, 2005

gallykid08 said:
anyway...u might want to do research abt abortion lowering the amount of child abuse etc...it actually doesnt. child abused incidents actually INCREASED after abortion was legalized. for example, in New York city in the 60s there were 5,000 reported cases of child abuse. abortion was legalized in the 1970s. by 1975, there were over 25,000 reported cases. the numbers also increased for all of the usa in general.

I think that while much of what you say is valid, this argument may not be...then again, it may. During the 1960's and 1970's, people became more aware that child abuse was wrong, and expanded on the concepts of what child abuse is (to include things like non-life-threatening but daily violences, drug abuse by a parents, etc)

However, you have pointed something out very important either way-that changing the hearts and minds of the public works. To see children as human beings who do not deserve to be beaten to within an inch of their lives-this was a huge change. Prevention is possible.

Lokisdottir · Mar 10, 2005

Green Man said:
I heard this just last night.Brian Duprey,state rep.(R) Maine,with the backing of a major gay and lesbian group,has introduced a bill that would ban abortion for babies possessing the gay gene.I know science has not yet gotten to the point of identifying individual genes like this.This throws a whole new spin on things.Let's say a couple finds out their unborn baby will likely be gay,they'll have no choice but to have the baby.But you can't discriminate based on sex,that would be wrong.No matter who you back on this one,liberals lose.

That's silly. If it's really going to be a problem, the obvious solution would be not to allow testing to find out whether or not the child will be gay.

Is abortion better than the alternative?

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