Is abortion better than the alternative?

Chloe Williams · Mar 7, 2005

Voodoo Gypsy said:
That's why I'm involved with Planned Parenthood. I want to lower abortion, not speak whistfully of adopting 1.2 million fetuses.

I think it is great that you want to lower abortion, but, I didn't hear anyone say anything about adopting 1.2 million babies. I heard an offer to adopt a baby, but could you tell me where you heard someone wanting to adopt 1.2 million babies?

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

Lokisdottir · Mar 7, 2005

ASLER86 said:
What about those who are adults and become brain-dead after an accident?
Why is it if a fetus dies at 20 weeks its a miscarriage and its loss is mourned but if someone aborts at the same time its an abortion and a pile of tissue and no one cares?

Don't let the word "brain" fool you. Dead is dead. When someone is brain-dead, their heart continues to pump blood and their lungs continue to breathe air, but only because the machines force them to. The consciousness is gone. A brain-dead person is literally nothing but a breathing corpse.

If a fetus dies in a miscarriage, it is mourned because its mother loved it and wanted it. She is mourning its lost potential. This is not always the case.

Other facts:
A "fetus" (which by the way means "little one" in latin) has a heartbeat by 21 days after conception. It can feel pain.

Having a heartbeat doesn't equal having consciousness. I'm no scientist, and I'm also too tired to go on a hunt for sources, so I'll leave this debate (when is a fetus capable of feeling pain) for later.

ASLER86 · Mar 7, 2005

Electra said:
Just because YOU know someone who does something certain way, it doesnt automatically make it valid for everyone else.

Its woman's choice - there are many reasons why women would want an abortion and if she so chooses, she should be able and free to do that. Ban abortion and it will still happen, in the back allyways and unlicenced medical practitioners - makes no differance, people who want an abortion will have one, and should have the right to do so.

There are many other parents of special needs children who would give you a similar story.

I understand the "women's choice, my body, my right." What is the basis for your conclusion other than that?
Just for awhile put aside the pro-choice vs pro-life argument and research WHY you believe what you believe, and I mean by more than just words or thought but by research. Try to convince be to be prochoice. Look at facts, statitistics and ultrasounds and what the fetus is like at 6 weeks, 15 weeks, 5 months, etc in utero. Give me facts, be open minded look at all sides of the issue other than pro-choice mantra of "right to choose" convince me why you believe what you believe.
What I am saying is do the research, from the fetus' standpoint. When is there a heartbeat, DNA? when is the sex of the fetus determined? When can it feel pain? Look at ultrasounds and visit websites. Present me with your data and your conclusions and the sources where you got your information.

Convince me to be prochoice please???

ASLER86 · Mar 7, 2005

Voodoo Gypsy said:
Pft. Yeah, right. Sure you will. Empty words are just that, empty words. Something tells me that abortions happened in your state today that you didn't show up at the clinic for. More than 40% of women have abortions, which means that it's not only possible a friend or family member of yours has had an abortion, it's likely.

And we could be aborting the next Hitler, Saddam, Charles Manson, or Celine Dion. To assume every abortion aborts a rocket scientist who was going to save the world is not only statistically improbable, it's wishful thinking and very naive.

Instead of fanciful "every abortion aborts a cancer scientist" and "I'm going to adopt every baby," which does nothing to improve the problem, work with yoru community or other organizations to do something about abortion. That's why I'm involved with Planned Parenthood. I want to lower abortion, not speak whistfully of adopting 1.2 million fetuses.

Your twisting my words and reading me too literally.
I did not say that I would adopt every baby. I would love to adopt but not all agencies smile upon young single women. I am also still in college and I do not have to money to adopt but as soon as I can I want to adopt. Catch up with me in a few years and I will tell you how many children I have/want. I am thinking at least 5-7 or so. And yes, 1.2 million is a lot but I want to help children, even if it is only a small ripple in a big pond. I was mainly speaking if a close friend or someone I knew was thinking of abortion I would be more than willing to help and take on their child if she didn't want it.

I wasn't saying that every abortion aborts a cancer scientist, I was saying that as humans do we really know what we are doing? That comment of mine actually came from a friend whose friend was considering an abortion. She decided to keep the baby and she is doing well. Also, where would our world be if we didn't have Hitler? The world would be drastically different that's for sure. The same if we didn't have Martin Luther King Jr. or Abraham Lincoln or George Washington. I was merely stating do we really know the long-term consequences of our actions?

Do I know of those who have had or have considered abortion? Do I know young single women who have gotten pregnant? of course I do. One of my close friends became pregnant out of wedlock, and another one of my close friends her mother had a couple of abortions before getting married.

ASLER86 · Mar 7, 2005

Lokisdottir said:
Having a heartbeat doesn't equal having consciousness. I'm no scientist, and I'm also too tired to go on a hunt for sources, so I'll leave this debate (when is a fetus capable of feeling pain) for later.

I did some research.
Source: The Least of These by Curt Young

If you have time, please read it all, if not read the sixth week and the third month.

By the third week after conception: embryo developing rapidly, body systems start developing, the first of which is the Central Nervous System. By twenty days after conception the foundation for the brain, spinal cord, and the entire nervous system. quote: "Throughout its growth the brain influences that of other organs"

The fourth week: embryo is a size of a penny. The internal skeleton begins to form, along with the mouth and body cavity, small buds begin to form which will form the arms and legs.

The fifth week: eyes, nostrils, lips, and tongue are visible, can see the cerebral cortex and the pituitary gland starts to form.

The sixth week: Major internal organs are present, toes and fingers starting to develop. You can see the brain, and brain activity can me measured

The seventh week: Bone replaces cartilege, brain growth and muscle development.

The third month: fetus begins breathing in and out amniotic fluid which strengthens his or her lungs, fingernails and toenails begin to form, and skin is sensitive to touch quote: "There is not question that this individual can suffer and experience acute pain"

Fourth month: fetus is about six inches long, and begins to suck his or her tongue, the mother can feel the fetus moving (although movement starts earlier)

5th/6th month: If born during the sixth month the fetus/baby has a good chance of surviving. The eyes have opened in utero, causing awareness to light, also has sensitivity to taste as the tongue is now covered with taste buds. Loud noises startle him or her.

The last three months is when "baby fat" accumalates, and the placenta starts to deteriote, so the baby will soon be ready to be born.

ASLER86 · Mar 7, 2005

Another point that I forgot to mention.... (sorry)

Now with technology improving electrical brain waves have been recorded with fetuses as young as FORTY days after conception. (abortionfacts.com)

Antoninus Verus · Mar 8, 2005

ASLER86 said:
Another point that I forgot to mention.... (sorry)

Now with technology improving electrical brain waves have been recorded with fetuses as young as FORTY days after conception. (abortionfacts.com)

Ok....brain activity doesnt mean consious thought. Can you determine when pain receptors and actual consiousness form?

Green Man · Mar 8, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Ok....brain activity doesnt mean consious thought. Can you determine when pain receptors and actual consiousness form?

You're talking about killing a human being here.

Rae · Mar 8, 2005

Green Man said:
You're talking about killing a human being here.

Do you oppose killing human beings under all circumstances, or only when a woman on her own wants to have an abortion? If it's not under all circumstances, why should it matter if anyone's talking about killing a human being? There are situations in which almost anyone could support killing a human being. Many people here support the death penalty, for example. (Most of them also call themselves "pro-life," ironically enough...) Many also support killing in war, even when innocents (including pregnant women) are killed.

So "you can't kill it, it's a human being" doesn't necessarily follow.

Green Man · Mar 8, 2005

Rae said:
Do you oppose killing human beings under all circumstances, or only when a woman on her own wants to have an abortion? If it's not under all circumstances, why should it matter if anyone's talking about killing a human being? There are situations in which almost anyone could support killing a human being. Many people here support the death penalty, for example. (Most of them also call themselves "pro-life," ironically enough...) Many also support killing in war, even when innocents (including pregnant women) are killed.

So "you can't kill it, it's a human being" doesn't necessarily follow.

How about focussing on the subject please and stop trying to detour me into another direction.They were discussing at what point it's ok to kill a baby.I guess I should have said"This is a human baby you're talking about killing here."

Rae · Mar 8, 2005

How about focussing on the subject please

Forgive me for thinking you wanted to put forth a valid argument. Henceforth I will assume that any arguments you put forth that don't make sense were intended to not make sense and will treat them as such.

Phred · Mar 8, 2005

Green Man said:
You're talking about killing a human being here.

I disagree. You believe it's a human baby. I believe it might one day be a human baby. Big difference, acorns are not trees.

.

Green Man · Mar 8, 2005

Rae said:
Forgive me for thinking you wanted to put forth a valid argument. Henceforth I will assume that any arguments you put forth that don't make sense were intended to not make sense and will treat them as such.

Your making of silly comparisons does not a valid arguement make.

Rae · Mar 8, 2005

Sigh. I've rarely seen such a blind person.

You can't see that you were making an invalid argument and that I was pointing it out to you. You can't see that by doing so, I was actually helping you by showing you what was wrong with it.

Okay. Bye.

Green Man · Mar 8, 2005

Rae said:
Sigh. I've rarely seen such a blind person.

You can't see that you were making an invalid argument and that I was pointing it out to you. You can't see that by doing so, I was actually helping you by showing you what was wrong with it.

Okay. Bye.

And what praytell,was my invalid arguement?

ASLER86 · Mar 8, 2005

Voodoo Gypsy said:
So the kids who are bounced from home to home are less worthy of a home than newborns?

Frankly, I think if you're going to adopt, you shouldn't be able to choose the age, gender, or appearence of the child. You should get a child in need of a home. I feel for parents who can't have kids, but I feel more for the kids who'll reach the age of 18 without knowing what a family unit is like because their childhood was one Foster Home stop after the other.

The intention of the adoption system is to give kids good homes, not give adults a vast selection of children to pick and choose out of. The focus shouldn't be on the adults, it should be on the kids. If you want a child that badly, you won't care about the age or gender of said child, and if you care about those asthetics as a hindge on adoption, then you shouldn't be adopting.

\

Your misunderstanding me again.
That comment was in response to someone commenting that abortion is fine because there are so many children in foster care and I was saying that many of the children in foster care are older children who were removed from their home because of abuse or neglect NOT children who were not adopted from birth after being given up by their birth mothers.
Should older children be adopted? Do they have every right? Of course they do. I never said that they didn't.

ASLER86 · Mar 8, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Ok....brain activity doesnt mean consious thought. Can you determine when pain receptors and actual consiousness form?

*banging head against desk*

Did you see my other post where I go through certain stages of the baby in utero?

To repeat myself:

At forty days (or six weeks) electrical brain waves can be measured. (abortionfacts.com and Curt Young The Least of These)
During the third month: Pain receptors have definately formed, the skin is sensitive to touch (Curt Young The Least of These)

At the sixth month the eyes are opened.

As far as conciousness--brain activity is measured, and the fetus responds to loud noises and it has been shown to relax to mother's voice....that shows a good amount of conciousness.
Unless the fetus could talk, could we measure how much? Even newborn babies can't talk but we know that they are concious and they at least think something although we don't know what.

oy...

Antoninus Verus · Mar 8, 2005

ASLER86 said:
*banging head against desk*

Did you see my other post where I go through certain stages of the baby in utero?

To repeat myself:

At forty days (or six weeks) electrical brain waves can be measured. (abortionfacts.com and Curt Young The Least of These)
During the third month: Pain receptors have definately formed, the skin is sensitive to touch (Curt Young The Least of These)

At the sixth month the eyes are opened.

As far as conciousness--brain activity is measured, and the fetus responds to loud noises and it has been shown to relax to mother's voice....that shows a good amount of conciousness.
Unless the fetus could talk, could we measure how much? Even newborn babies can't talk but we know that they are concious and they at least think something although we don't know what.

oy...

Reacting to a stimulus does not mean conscience thought. A snail will react if poked. Animals relax at certain sounds and scents. I still fail to see how this proves that a fetus is a human being before the last month or so of pregnancy. The thing that sets us appart (As far as we can tell) from animals is the ability to realize and affirm our own existance. Can a fetus do that?

I know it seems like Im trying to base an argument off a totally unproveable fact but just follow me on this one. What makes a human being a human? As I said, we can acknowleage the fact that "I am". I personally think some animals can as well but just cant communicate that to us. But regardless of what I think about animals, a HUMAN is an entity that can acknowleage its own existance, thats it.

Half a building isnt a building. You want to call something thats only half human a human. When the simple fact is that there is no indication that the fetus has self-awareness to the degree that a human baby does. It reacts to a stimulus, but ALL living things will do that.

Crashfreak · Mar 8, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Reacting to a stimulus does not mean conscience thought. A snail will react if poked. Animals relax at certain sounds and scents. I still fail to see how this proves that a fetus is a human being before the last month or so of pregnancy. The thing that sets us appart (As far as we can tell) from animals is the ability to realize and affirm our own existance. Can a fetus do that?

I know it seems like Im trying to base an argument off a totally unproveable fact but just follow me on this one. What makes a human being a human? As I said, we can acknowleage the fact that "I am". I personally think some animals can as well but just cant communicate that to us. But regardless of what I think about animals, a HUMAN is an entity that can acknowleage its own existance, thats it.

Half a building isnt a building. You want to call something thats only half human a human. When the simple fact is that there is no indication that the fetus has self-awareness to the degree that a human baby does. It reacts to a stimulus, but ALL living things will do that.

So you are saying that a featus cannot acknowledge their own existence, therefore do not really have a right to live, or the right is placed on someone else?

I have mentioned this in another post, but around 80% of abortions in the US are due to the fact that it is inconvenient for the mother. So basically the mother has had sex (possibly unprotected) and now feels that this is such an inconvenience so it would be better just to get rid of the thing. So no responsibility for her actions just an easy way out. I can kinda understand certain other reasons, like rape and I can definitely understand if the mother's life is in danger...but this seems to be rare.

Because you define a human being as something else, it doesn't excuse what is happening. This actually is a common tactic in genocide, used by a lot of people in history.

ASLER86 · Mar 8, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Reacting to a stimulus does not mean conscience thought. A snail will react if poked. Animals relax at certain sounds and scents. I still fail to see how this proves that a fetus is a human being before the last month or so of pregnancy. The thing that sets us appart (As far as we can tell) from animals is the ability to realize and affirm our own existance. Can a fetus do that?

I know it seems like Im trying to base an argument off a totally unproveable fact but just follow me on this one. What makes a human being a human? As I said, we can acknowleage the fact that "I am". I personally think some animals can as well but just cant communicate that to us. But regardless of what I think about animals, a HUMAN is an entity that can acknowleage its own existance, thats it.

Half a building isnt a building. You want to call something thats only half human a human. When the simple fact is that there is no indication that the fetus has self-awareness to the degree that a human baby does. It reacts to a stimulus, but ALL living things will do that.

Exactly, all LIVING things will do that (react to a stimulus). The point is its living.

I believe that life starts in utero, period. I've seen a video of a fetus reacting to an abortion, how the heart rate jumps and how the unborn baby jumps around trying to avoid the foreign object. I KNOW in my heart and in my soul and my research confirms that life starts in utero.

I'd encourage you to do your own research, look at non-biased sources as well as pro-life and pro-choice sources. That's what I did to come to my conclusions.

I look at ultrasounds of fetuses and I looked at sources about what the fetus is capable of at certain stages in utero. We could argue this debate forever, but the facts stick.

From another viewpoint, the fetus is capable of life, therefore it is alive. Aborting it is damaging the potential that that little life has. (a pro-choice gave me the argument that the reason why a miscarried baby is mourned is because of its potential, isnt it the same for a baby to be aborted?)

Is abortion better than the alternative?

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