Interesting view on Abortion - Please Participate (FOR EVERY MEMBERS OF THE FORUM)

Monica02 · Sep 2, 2004

The Bellman said:
If the morality of abortion was as clear and cut and dried as that of slavery or rape, your comparison would be valid, and you'd have made a good point.

It's not. It isn't. You haven't.

The direct killing of an innocent human life is not as clear cut as slavery or rape?

Your thinking is fuzzy.

Rev. Smith · Sep 2, 2004

And the results are:

Conception - no post coital interfereance should be allowed.

24 48.98%
At atachment to the womb, day after pills are ok

6 12.24%
Life is in the blood, abortion for the first few weeks is fine

2 4.08%
It isn't a child until it is fully formed, first trimester is ok

4 8.16%
It's not a child until its viable, so the first two trimesters are ok

7 14.29%Not a child until born, abortion on demand

6 12.24%

Voters: 49. This poll is closed

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=8773214

I do not mistake a poll for a measure of reality, but rather for how people perceive reality. As the OP points out, the debate really must come down to the question of when is a featus a human. Up untill that time a woman can choose to abort, without committing murder. After that moment abortion is killing a human.

I think the one thing we can learn from the pole, is why this issue is so intractable. The majority of the posters are Christian, and thus pre-disposed to a theological response. Just under half believe that life begins at conception, and thus no abortion should be allowed. The rest are spread all over the spectrum.

So how do we get people to start adressing the issue in terms of when life begins?

Lifesaver · Sep 2, 2004

Good question of the OP.
Is the fetus alive?

Everyone with a little biological knowledge will say yes, not for one moment is the fetus dead matter. It is always alive, nourishing and developing itself.

Therefore, abortion is wrong.

Prince Lucianus · Sep 2, 2004

So cutting down plants is wrong as well?

In this opinion, killing anything alive is inherently wrong.

If you agree to this, then I can agree with your statement. If you don't, then I don't get it.

Lucy

Cjwinnit · Sep 2, 2004

Lifesaver said:
Good question of the OP.
Is the fetus alive?

Everyone with a little biological knowledge will say yes, not for one moment is the fetus dead matter. It is always alive, nourishing and developing itself.

Therefore, abortion is wrong.

Hmm, you missed a few steps, like "It's DNA is entirely human" and "it is an entirely unique sentient independant lifeform".

Lifesaver · Sep 2, 2004

Prince Lucianus said:
So cutting down plants is wrong as well?

No, of course not.

In this opinion, killing anything alive is inherently wrong.
If you agree to this, then I can agree with your statement. If you don't, then I don't get it.

You seem to have missed the fact that we are talking about human beings.
Afterall, if the fetus is alive, what can it possibly be?
A plant? No.
A virus? No.
A cat? Also not.

In fact, if one is unsure about which kind of living being the fetus is, they can analyze its DNA. Upon doing so, they'll realize the individual in question is a human, and one that is alive (and you have agreed on this point).
To agree with its murder would be just like agreeing with the murder of any other human.

Nycky · Sep 6, 2004

jingwei said:
It's all in the eye of the beholder.
In my opinion , a Christian woman would not get herself into the position to require an abortion unless it is life threatening.

So Christian women have found a fool proof way to avoid rape.

Cool.

Nyc

Nycky · Sep 6, 2004

Broken Doll said:
You're right, in most cases it is because of irresponsibility. About 1% (0.4-1.3%) of abortions were because of rape/incest, about 3% (2.8%) for maternal health, and 3% (3.3%) for fetal malformation. So about 93% (92.8%) of abortions are because of irresponsibility.

Credit: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Broken Doll

Define irresponsibility. Is contraceptive failure irresponsibility? I think not. Many abortions are a consequence of ignorance -- lack of information about contraception (getting it and using it,) to include not knowing under what circumstanecs contraception may be rendered ineffective.

Nyc

Nycky · Sep 6, 2004

Lifesaver said:
Good question of the OP.
Is the fetus alive?

Everyone with a little biological knowledge will say yes, not for one moment is the fetus dead matter. It is always alive, nourishing and developing itself.

Therefore, abortion is wrong.

Cancer is living cells. Should we not excise it because it lives.

Nyc

aimejl · Sep 6, 2004

Prince Lucianus said:
And then she got a handicapped child and found out that open arms were actually closed.

Let's not abort anymore and all become vegies to morally justify this. Personally I think you can't be against abortion, but have no problem with killing cows (or other animals) who are more sentient than a foetus.

Lucy

Hey, if that is the way every woman thought I wouldn't be here because I am handicapped. Like the person said there are other people who would want to adopted that child even if it was handicapped. Choose life not MURDER.

slayer-2004 · Sep 6, 2004

How would you determine who was raped and who consented to sex? A woman could just lie and say she was raped in order to get an abortion.

this is probobly why I stand were I stand . I dont believe abortion is right , as it does at the very least prevent the chance of life . Is stopping a ball from rolling really any differant from catching it as it falls off the cliff ? Not really .

But I dont believe a young women should be forced to go through with the extreme emotional pain of being forced to carry a baby she didnt consent to having . Rape is already mentally damaging enough , must we further it by forcing the girl to give birth to her rapists child ? What if the emotional damage causes her to commit suicide ? ( Very good possibility considering the mental damage ) Then there goes your attempt to save life .

But then there is the problem with having abortions for only those who get raped . Many girls would lie so they could get an abortion . Heck , even now many girls lie about rape just so they can justify having an abortion and shift the blame of sexual immorality off of themselves .

pthalomarie · Sep 6, 2004

slayer-2004 said:
Heck , even now many girls lie about rape just so they can justify having an abortion and shift the blame of sexual immorality off of themselves .

Name one.

slayer-2004 · Sep 6, 2004

Name one.

before I go off and find one of the numerous case files that show examples of young women lieing about rape charges in order to get out of something , I would like to ask you two things :

1 ) Where have you been all these years ?

2 ) Do you even know what rape is ?

Nycky · Sep 6, 2004

slayer-2004 said:
before I go off and find one of the numerous case files that show examples of young women lieing about rape charges in order to get out of something , I would like to ask you two things :

1 ) Where have you been all these years ?

2 ) Do you even know what rape is ?

Slayer,

What is the point of these questions? I wonder what gender you are because imagine any woman asking another woman theses questions about this particular subject. Most women are intimately acquainted with rape because one-third of them are victims of it at least once ion their lives.

As to the issue, state your case. I am interested to see your facts.

I worked with victims of sexual assault for eight years. I worked with women hours, sometimes minutes after their assaults and with women, and a few men, years after it happened. Very few women lie about sexual assault.

The reality is, in fact, that only ten percent of rapes and other sexual assaults are reported. Even fewer, one percent of that ten percent get to a court room, not because of lack of evidence but because women are afraid to come forward because of the censure they receive from their communities.

In agencies that help to fund abortions for rape victims, nobody simply takes the word of the woman. She has to make a police report, to swear, on penalty of perjury, that she has ben assulted. Where she can name her assailant she must. This is usually where any lieing that gets done happens. Most women know their assailants but do not want to name him for fear of retailiation.

My personal belief is that a woman is entitled to choose what to do with her body. It's interesting that an anti-Choice, Christian physcian will agree with a woman's choice to not accept chemotherapy for advanced cancer during pregnancy, knowing it will kill her, but will deny her to choice to end an unwanted pregnancy. Its okay for adult women to choose to kill themselves, but they are not allowed to choose to kill a foetus, potential, but as yet unvialbe, creatures.

Clearly, no matter how far we think we have come, women are still more valued as brood mares, human incubators, than they are valued as autonomous human beings.

Nyc

slayer-2004 · Sep 6, 2004

the point of the questions is simple - although you are right that most girls who report sexual assualt really were sexually assualted , it doesnt mean that they never lie . pthalomarie has asked me to actually look up a girl who lied and name her as if to say not a single girl has ever lied about sexual assault .

I was asking those questions as a wake up call . I shouldnt have to go out and find one because its obvious at least one exists . Especially in college .

Nycky · Sep 6, 2004

slayer-2004 said:
the point of the questions is simple - although you are right that most girls who report sexual assualt really were sexually assualted , it doesnt mean that they never lie . pthalomarie has asked me to actually look up a girl who lied and name her as if to say not a single girl has ever lied about sexual assault .

I was asking those questions as a wake up call . I shouldnt have to go out and find one because its obvious at least one exists . Especially in college .

What you said Slayer is

slayer-2004 said:
Heck , even now many girls lie about rape just so they can justify having an abortion and shift the blame of sexual immorality off of themselves.

How can you prove this? Currently, in the US at least, no one has to explain why she is requesting an abortion. To whom are these women lieing about rapes to obtain abortions?

Especially in college? Poppycock! Utter rot!

By the way, sexual immorality, if you believe in such a thing outside of non-consensual sex, is shared by both participants, not just the one who suffers the pregnancy.

Nyc

Prince Lucianus · Sep 7, 2004

aimejl said:
Hey, if that is the way every woman thought I wouldn't be here because I am handicapped. Like the person said there are other people who would want to adopted that child even if it was handicapped. Choose life not MURDER.

But you probably accept that people are less interested in getting a (f.i) mentally handicapped child than getting one which looks completely normal.

I still don't see why people have so many problems with removing a fetus, but have no problem at all to look at a bull fight (f.i).
If you're pro life, become a veganist.

Lucy

slayer-2004 · Sep 7, 2004

I now realize from this last statement that I have been completely misunderstood . I apologize for not wording what I said clearly .

By the way, sexual immorality, if you believe in such a thing outside of non-consensual sex, is shared by both participants, not just the one who suffers the pregnancy.

In no way whatsoever was I saying that all the blame for sexual immorality falls on that of females . I am not a sexist ******* . I ment that she shifts the part of the blame that is hers onto others . I am not saying all the blame goes to her at all .

Furthermore , you need to understand my stance on rape - I personally think rape and murder are equally evil .

Especially in college? Poppycock! Utter rot!

What makes you want to defend the stance that all women are trustworthy ? They are not . All men are not trustworthy either .

Just because you trusted every girl that came to you doesnt mean that all girls tell the truth .

pthalomarie · Sep 7, 2004

slayer-2004 said:
before I go off and find one of the numerous case files that show examples of young women lieing about rape charges in order to get out of something , I would like to ask you two things :

1 ) Where have you been all these years ?

2 ) Do you even know what rape is ?

In order to make a claim that women have lied about being raped just to get an abortion, you need evidence - i.e., names and specific cases, or surveys. Otherwise, you're just engaging in speculation and gossip.

Given the lack of examples you've offered, it seems clear to me that you have no reason to believe this, other than that you simply want to.

And remember, what is important here is not women lying about rape to "get out of something"; it is lying about rape to get an abortion.

the point of the questions is simple - although you are right that most girls who report sexual assualt really were sexually assualted , it doesnt mean that they never lie . pthalomarie has asked me to actually look up a girl who lied and name her as if to say not a single girl has ever lied about sexual assault .

You're offering a strawman. I never stated that women never lie about sexual assault. As Nycky pointed out, your perspective is clearly that of someone with little or no awareness of what really happens to a woman's psyche when they are assaulted. What I am contending is that I've never heard of a woman lying about assault in order to get an abortion.

I was asking those questions as a wake up call . I shouldnt have to go out and find one because its obvious at least one exists . Especially in college .

If I said that it's obvious that you're a misogynist, wouldn't you rightfully demand that I offer proof? Of course you would - and you would be justified in doing so.

In this same way, you are obligated to provide proof when you make such sweeping claims about falsified sexual assault reports and abortion. Because what your claim does is that it raises doubt on every woman's report of assault. And you do this without ever having to stick your neck out and see if your hunch is backed up by facts.

So, like it or not, you have to either back it up, or withdraw the claim.

I now realize from this last statement that I have been completely misunderstood . I apologize for not wording what I said clearly .

The quote you cited is not at issue. What is at issue here is the one you're still standing by.

In no way whatsoever was I saying that all the blame for sexual immorality falls on that of females . I am not a sexist ******* . I ment that she shifts the part of the blame that is hers onto others . I am not saying all the blame goes to her at all .

It may not be overt, but this is a sexist viewpoint. The implication you're making is that:

A) Men don't ever shift blame in such situations

and B) You are assuming that all women shift blame to some degree.

slayer-2004 · Sep 7, 2004

A) Men don't ever shift blame in such situations

I never even remotely said that , nor do I believe that .

B) You are assuming that all women shift blame to some degree.

Were on earth did you get that idea from reading my posts ? No , I am not assuming anything of the sort nor do I believe anything of the sort .

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