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Intelligent Design, Science & Religion

bcbsr

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Intelligent Design, Science & Religion

I recently attended an institutional wide meeting of the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in which there was an open discussion of sponsorship of non-scientific talks by SAO. The main concern had to do with lectures which alluded to religious ideas. For being a government institution Smithsonian is not allowed to take official stands in the area of religion. Yet given the controversies we have today with the Intelligent Design vs Evolution, Young Earth Creationism vs the measurement of ages of the the universe, the earth, species and civilization which scientists have derived, it would seem desirable that there would be some public discussion between the two sides. For there seems to be generally a great deal of misunderstanding concerning these issues.

For example many scientists are ignorant of the distinction between the Intelligent Design movement and that of Young Earth Creationism. So also many of those movements are ignorant of the facts constituting evolution as well as the facts concerning the issue of the age of things.

For decades, long before the intelligent design movement, I've been using and continue to use what today is referred to as Intelligent Design in discussing evidence for God's existence. The Bible also advocates the idea of such evidence being available. "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities— his eternal power and divine nature— have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Rom 1:20 The Bible advocates the idea we should be able to infer God's existence from the evidence in nature. The idea is that scientific observations of nature would seem to suggest the existence of God.

I found it interesting that at the SAO meeting many of the scientists in expressing their personal opinion were troubled by the idea advocated by the ID community - namely that the scientific evidence "seems to suggest" an intelligent designer. Yet the idea of some fact of science "seeming to suggest" another fact is part of the scientific process. For example SAO is involved in the search for extrasolar life - life outside our solar system. In the process of doing so they're looking for earth-like planets, and in analyzing the light reflected from its sun they're looking for spectra associated with organic processes. For such would "seem to suggest" the presence of life. So I don't see what their problem is with the Intelligent Design position.

Intelligent Design in the Classroom?
One of the objections to "Intelligent Design" being taught as science is that it purportedly adds nothing to science. In other words for them to infer that "God did it" ends the search for explanation and scientific inquiry. Yet by analogy consider the fact that through scientific means we are searching for extrasolar life - and ultimately even intelligent life. Now what if evidence of such intelligent life is discovered? Should we not teach that fact in the class rooms for fear that it would end all scientific inquiry into the question? And what if an intelligent designed is inferred? It still leaves open the question for scientific inquiry as to how God did it. Or if the religious implications are the concern then just leave the term "God" out of the discussion and speak simply of an intelligent designer and let people infer what they may.

Young Earth Creationism
But as for Young Earth Creationism, the YEC gang tends to have a much different perspective on science and on this idea of making inferences. The YEC position is much more an argument over the interpretation of Genesis than it is about the interpretation of scientific facts. Science is about what happens. It's inferences deal with what will happen in that it is predictive and what did happen in that it deals with the realm of history. But religion also deals with the realm of history, and in that realm there may be conflicts between science and religion. The facts of history and life inferred from indepth scientific investigations do not "seem to suggest" what is advocated by the YEC position. Much as with the Flat Earth position the YEC position is counter-intuitive to the known facts derived by scientific inquiry. Their only strength is in keeping people ignorant of the facts by misrepresenting and underrepresenting the facts while shielding themselves from skepticism under a cloak of religious zealotry. For more on YEC see Young Earth Creationism

Intelligent Design vs. Evolution

While the present movement which refers to itself as "Intelligent Design" or simply ID presents itself as if in conflict with "Evolution", the idea of an intelligent designed being inferred from the facts of nature does not necessarily conflict with evolution per se. It disturbs me that, due to indoctrination, most Christians have misconceptions as to what constitutes "evolution" and the facts of evolution, as if evolution implies atheism. First of all there's a difference between the fact of evolution and the theories as to how evolution occurred. I mention some of the facts of evolution
at Genesis Interpretation To bottom-line it the fact is that the evidence "seems to suggest" a common biological line of descent not only within species but between species. In other words if one were to study the scientific data objectively, one would would be led to infer the evolutionary theory of common origin. While many may argue that such a theory conflicts with the Bible, such arguments are not really about the facts of science but about interpretations of the Bible.
As ID claims their arguments not to be based on what the Bible says, but rather upon inferences of science, they cannot argue against the theory of common origin other than in the realm of science. And why should they? There's nothing inherent in the idea of common origin contrary to intelligent design per se. In fact, is there any conflict between evolution and intelligent design to speak of? Not unless you make presumptions about the manner in which God chose to do things.

At this point concerning the fact of evolution, science can only tell us that the evidence points to a series of events which led to life as we know it presently. It doesn't really say that such events were likely or unlikely or even the precise nature of those events. Evolutionary science does not take a stand as to whether God did it or did not do it. It only presents the facts. Were such events directed by God? I can only sit back and infer that given the results, the process was a series of unlikely - God-directed - events which led to life as we know it. Thus we can infer an intelligent designer. But such events are often associated with the word "chance". For whether its the issue of mutation or due to environmental cirucmstances one individual's DNA propagating to the next generation or not, "chance" is involved. It disturbs me when well-meaning Christians seem to think that "chance" is contrary to God's working as if "chance" were another God. Don't such Christians believe that God is involved in the outcome of such events? The God of the Bible is not one who just sits back and watches his creation as one watches a TV. God of the Bible is intimately involved in the outcomes of all things. Even toss a coin. Is the outcome a working of God? It certainly is. "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD."Pr 16:33 Thus rather than a conflict, evolution may simply be a description of what the Intelligent Designer (God) did.

But as for those who would argue that God didn't do it that way because an intelligent designed wouldn't do it that way, one is simply saying that the scientific evidence does not point to an intelligent designer. Furthermore the Bible shows that often even the godly underestimate God's workings, like Job 38:4+ the Lord says to Job, "Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand .... Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this. What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!" It seems God is often bigger than many make Him out to be.

Faith & Likelihood
Now as I said science and religion - or the Bible in particular - may clash in the realm of history. Yet there is not necessarily a conflict between the two. For why should there be? The God of the Bible, the God of History, is also the God of science, as He is also the God of Chance events - and God of everything else as well. But while we may not be able to prove God's existence apart from faith, realize that intuition is part of what constitutes faith. The idea of something "seeming to suggest" another is part of the activity of faith. Such activities of faith we find not only in the realm of religion but even of science and history, though they may not refer to such as religious faith. But in all cases we would hope such faith not to be overly presumptuous, but rather have a firm basis in fact. Of the religious faiths, Biblical faith is arguably the most well founded.
Getting back to the ID idea, what really leads us to conclude an intelligent designer is the issue of likelihood. But while it may be intuitively obvious, the unlikelihood for life occurring apart from intelligent intervention is very difficult to calculate in a mathematical sense. Furthermore consider stochastic events (those characterized by a probability curve) such as the tossing of a coin. While one could claim the probability curve is predictable, one can say nothing of the outcome of individual events. (That's how God really screws up gamblers) Thus one can never really disprove divine intervention into such events.

Conclusion
Given the present controversies it would be best if all parties were better informed on all these subjects For as Paul writes on a related issue, "They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm." 1Tim 1:7
The Berean Christian Bible Study Resources
 

Monna

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My personal thoughts...
There are numerous interpretations of "evolution" and there are several variations of "ID."
The deeper one goes into "science" the more one faces the understanding that nothing is 100% sure, everything is couched in terms of probability - or to use your term "likelihood" as a qualifier for ID.

To quote from Here's Stephen Hawking's Incredible Solution to His Black Hole Information Paradox:

"But then in the 1970s, Hawking proposed that radiation actually can escape from a black hole, because of the laws of quantum mechanics. Put very simply, he suggested that when a black hole swallows one half of a particle-antiparticle pair, the other particle radiates away into space, stealing a little energy from the black hole as it leaves.

Because of this, eventually, black holes can disappear, and the only remaining trace would be the electromagnetic radiation they emitted - which is known as 'Hawking radiation'.

The problem is that, according to Hawking's best calculations, that radiation would contain no useful information about what the black hole ate - the information swallowed up would have been lost forever.

And that doesn't gel with our understanding of modern physics, which states that it's always possible to reverse time. In theory, at least, processes in the Universe will look the same if they're running forwards or backwards.

As Dennis Overbye explains over at The New York Times:

"The Universe, like a kind of supercomputer, is supposed to be able to keep track of whether one car was a green pickup truck and the other was a red Porsche, or whether one was made of matter and the other antimatter. These things may be destroyed, but their 'information' - their essential physical attributes - should live forever."

Hence the paradox."​

The universe is "physical" - materia (energy and materia are interchangeable). But it contains, indeed, displays consistent operational "laws" which amount to "information" - which is NOT physical or material. This "information" can exist independently of the universe, in which case it could be conceived of as being, or has being held by "mind" which is also independent of physical materia, independent of space and time. Even in ouR puny speck of a planet in the universe, all our "information" is held in the form of "language" - how ever you define that. And our experience is that information also incorporates all we know about personality, character, feelings, purpose, and so on. From the Christian perspective I think we have no problem with identifying this mind with the one we refer to as God - who exists independently of space and time and materia, but who knows all things (contains all information).

This provides me with a bridge between all processes in the universe in the past present and future, that are the subject of "science" and the notion of an intelligent mind (God) who set in motions and sustains in motion the universe and all that is in it. While some scientists want to say "evolution" has been a matter of "chance," other scientists would say there is no such thing as chance - it is only our inability to grasp everything in the minutest detail that leaves us talking of "probabilities." (The more complete our understanding of processes, that closer "probabilities" approach 1, or 100% certainty.) Evolution has been explained in a variety of ways - I have no problem whatsoever, with the broad notion that evolution is also a potential expression of intelligent design.

IMHO the main difference between the Christian believer and scientists, is that the Christian is convinced that there is purpose in the design of the universe (with significant parts of that purpose revealed to us) from the macro to the micro level, while the scientists insist on remaining "neutral" on all questions of purpose. (At the same time, what they find out in all their advances, is increasing predictability - in other words everything is going very definitely in a direction, whatever that direction might be. And sometimes they have had to change their understanding of that direction.)
 
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Brightmoon

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Evolution is an observed fact and is accurately defined as change in allele frequencies over time. ID is pseudoscience and adds nothing to any discussion about science as science doesn’t deal with supernatural phenomena.

Some Believers in America want to use ID as a wedge to impose their fundamentalist religious beliefs on all school children because this currently is forbidden . The government expects parents to teach religion to their children and the government wants to stay out of it.
 
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stevevw

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I think ID seems to be a logical position to take considering what we see. Evolution relies on a lot of preexisting complex info to build upon but never really explains how this came about. It makes similar traits in different creatures even down to the genetic level as extraordinary coincidences with convergent evolution which is happening more and more. Yet this would make more sense if this was the result of common design features.

The point is if some super intelligent alien race had seeded earth and had some design initiating life most scientists would accept this. ID does not have to be linked to God. It is a idea that suggests that life has some design even if this is not caused by God.
 
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Resha Caner

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I think ID seems to be a logical position to take considering what we see.

It's reasonable to believe God created, and I appreciate Dembski's original work in ID, but the idea has logical and metrical problems.
 
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stevevw

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It's reasonable to believe God created, and I appreciate Dembski's original work in ID, but the idea has logical and metrical problems.
Like most hypothesis they are constantly being developed. This is the same for Dembski's work and other scientists have built upon this as proposed in the papers linked above. Whether God created original kinds or a universal organism that evolved there is design. Life that shows such variety and complexity cannot blindly and randomly occur. Even non religious scientists recognize this.
 
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Resha Caner

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Like most hypothesis they are constantly being developed. This is the same for Dembski's work and other scientists have built upon this as proposed in the papers linked above.

ID continues to be promoted. That's not the same as developing it. My point is that ID has a roadblock it will never be able to pass. I wish Christians would give up on ID, which is a lost cause, and support endeavors in biology that actually have a chance of making an impact.
 
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stevevw

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What are the endeavors in biology that can make an impact. I do not support ID as traditionalists ID supports do. I only support certain aspects and this may not even be classed as ID. I support evolution but believe that there is design in how living things gain new features. These mechanisms and processes have been installed in life to enable them to adapt to the planet otherwise they would die out. All life is based on universal proteins that have been around from a very early time and from this all variation can flow. Therefore we should be able to find ways in which living things can adapt that allow them to utilize this info. For example niche construction, plasticity and extra-genetic inheritance allow creatures to change their forms or change their environments to adapt.

Developmental biology allows us to see that there are similar developmental process in all living things that can switch on genes that develop new features. For example there may be a basic gene for eyes but from this new variations can be made by switching on genes that allow different creatures to adapt to their specific environments. Environmental pressure can even have an influence which can have an effect on a creature through its cells and tissue and this in turn can cause future changes that can help a creature adapt genetically.

All these mechanisms are similar for all life and have been installed in life to help them adapt. In other words evolution is not all about blind and random adaptation but is more directed through these mechanisms. These mechanisms show design in evolution. As far as ID goes I think there is merit in that because of the complexity at the molecular level this shows that a blind and random process could not create this without these directed mechanisms. Thus there is evidence showing that Neo Darwinism is incapable of producing such forms and changes and even the small examples used would take more time than what the standard theory claims if it only relied on the hit and miss mechanism that is attributed to Darwinism.
 
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Resha Caner

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These mechanisms show design in evolution.

They do not. You're begging the question. Can you give me an example of something that was not designed?

I do not support ID as traditionalists ID supports do. I only support certain aspects and this may not even be classed as ID.

I see. Hopefully you realize you can't just pick and choose whatever bits and pieces appeal to you. … Well, you can, but that's not science.

What are the endeavors in biology that can make an impact[?]

I may have misjudged what you were saying. Given you say you are not a traditional creationist, it would follow your motivations and goals may not be traditional either. What is your interest in biology?
 
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stevevw

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They do not. You're begging the question. Can you give me an example of something that was not designed?
I guess something like a rock that has been eroded to look like a figure of some sort.

I see. Hopefully you realize you can't just pick and choose whatever bits and pieces appeal to you. … Well, you can, but that's not science.
I think you can pick and choose so long as it is supported. The thing is there can be some truth in some aspects of all hypothesis and there can also be some false propositions.

I may have misjudged what you were saying. Given you say you are not a traditional creationist, it would follow your motivations and goals may not be traditional either. What is your interest in biology?
My interest in biology is like anyone else who studies biology. But as far as evolution goes I think biology is just one aspect of it so we need to consider other things like development, psychology, sociology, genomics, epigenetics, ecology and social science. This can be best summed up with the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis (EES).
Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?
 
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stevevw

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Evolutionnews is a creationist website. FYI
Actually it is a ID website and does not promote creationism. You should not just dismiss it out of hand. First read it and then comment.

About
Evolution News & Science Today (EN) provides original reporting and analysis about evolution, neuroscience, bioethics, intelligent design and other science-related issues, including breaking news about scientific research. It also covers the impact of science on culture and conflicts over free speech and academic freedom in science. Finally, it fact-checks and critiques media coverage of scientific issues.
 
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Brightmoon

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ID is creationism lite. It’s not science and Cdesign proponentists don’t do research they just complain about evolution and or common descent. Errr ,unless you consider making up silly definitions for scientific terminology doing research, which I don’t

I’ve read their pseudoscience nonsense before.
 
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stevevw

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I don't not think you understand ID and have not read about it properly. It is an oxymoron to say that ID is creationism as they are completely different. ID does not even offer a creator because that is not scientifically verifiable. It leaves that to religion. ID proponent do use research and peer reviewed science. You must be getting your info from stereotypical sources that do not investigate things.

According to Darwinian biologists such as Oxford University's Richard Dawkins, living systems "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose". But, for modern Darwinists, that appearance of design is illusory, because the purely undirected process of natural selection acting on random mutations is entirely sufficient to produce the intricate designed-like structures found in living organisms.

By contrast, ID holds that there are tell-tale features of living systems and the universe that are best explained by a designing intelligence. The theory does not challenge the idea of evolution defined as change over time, or even common ancestry, but it disputes Darwin's idea that the cause of biological change is wholly blind and undirected.
Intelligent design is not creationism


intelligent design theory does not allow one to identify the designer as natural or supernatural

Intelligent design does not claim that living things came together suddenly in their present form through the efforts of a supernatural creator. Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation.
FAQ: Is intelligent design just creationism (or creationism "in disguise")?

Disputing the undirected power of natural selection is not just done by ID supporters but also by many mainstream scientists.
 
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Brightmoon

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ID is still pseudoscience because there is no evidence for their central idea. Without that ID falls apart .the fact that genetics and biochemical processes are complicated isn’t really relevant to the fact that there is no there, there
 
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Resha Caner

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ID is still pseudoscience because there is no evidence for their central idea.

Were I to say it, I would phrase it slightly differently. Rather than saying there is no evidence for ID, I would say it's not possible to build a logical structure that would allow you to quantitatively identify evidence for ID. I think it's an important distinction for the sole reason that I don't want to stop people from asking questions. So, I'll ask you a procedural question.

Suppose a person witnesses something that piques their curiosity. They ask a question about what they saw and decide to investigate that question. They form a hypothesis as to what happened and test it. The test falsifies their hypothesis. Their hypothesis was wrong.

Does that mean something they did during that journey was unscientific? pseudo-scientific?
 
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Brightmoon

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. Supernatural causation is untestable so what’s your point?
 
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stevevw

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ID is still pseudoscience because there is no evidence for their central idea. Without that ID falls apart .the fact that genetics and biochemical processes are complicated isn’t really relevant to the fact that there is no there, there
So what are the central ideas of ID that require evidence.
 
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Brightmoon

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So what are the central ideas of ID that require evidence.
1the idea that a deity can cause anything to happen
2 that this deity did cause natural phenomena.
Remember science is verifiable evidence based . Mere Belief in that deity just won’t cut it
 
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