In This Thread: replacements for "cisgender"

Truthfrees · Apr 18, 2016

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Everyone please try to think about each other kindly.

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PapaZoom · Apr 23, 2016

Cute Tink said:
It occurs to me that, if you hate the term "cisgender" so much, we could always call you "average" instead.

Or how about "typical"?

I don't identify as cisgender. I identify as a male - and that's what I expect to be called. /end of it

GoldenBoy89 · Apr 23, 2016

PapaZoom said:
I don't identify as cisgender. I identify as a male - and that's what I expect to be called. /end of it

Both male and female can be (and usually are) cisgender. It literally means not-transgender.

PapaZoom · Apr 23, 2016

GoldenBoy89 said:
Both male and female can be (and usually are) cisgender. It literally means not-transgender.

I don't care. It's meaningless to me and offensive. I won't have a small minority dictate to me how I identify my gender. Nor will I be dictated to on how to refer to the sexes. I identify as old school. A boy is a boy and a girl a girl. / the end

PapaZoom · Apr 23, 2016

This snapshot from an article captures the madness of the transgendered madness

Instead, the court ruled that the school must tell all of its male students that their physical privacy isn’t as valuable as that of a single transgender student, and that they must be okay with a biological female using their restrooms, changing rooms, and locker rooms. They must immediately and without complaint surrender a right to physical privacy that has been assumed for centuries because of the objective differences between male and female bodies. And they don’t even get a “Sorry.”

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/434410/transgender-bathroom-madness

The female above refused a private accommodation because it caused her psychological stress.

But the psychological stress on her fellow students is unimportant. They must shut up and just deal with it.

And there are scores of people who can't see this as a problem.

variant · Apr 23, 2016

GoldenBoy89 said:
Both male and female can be (and usually are) cisgender. It literally means not-transgender.

I don't think people need me to identify as not transgender.

Identifying ones gender is not a usual social interaction for most people.

While I feel for people with more complex gender identity issues, it simply isn't necessary to identify yourself as a man who looks, acts and feels like they are a man.

trunks2k · Apr 23, 2016

variant said:
I don't think people need me to identify as not transgender.

Usually, no. But when talking about issues that surround transgendered individuals, "cisgender" is a useful word.

The Cadet · Apr 23, 2016

PapaZoom said:
I don't identify as cisgender. I identify as a male - and that's what I expect to be called. /end of it

My friend Cory identifies as male as well. However, she's not cisgendered. Obviously, "male" is a more immediately useful identifier, but this doesn't mean you aren't also cisgendered, and it doesn't mean that cisgendered is not a useful term for describing you in the context of the relationship between your sex and your gender identity. Perhaps a prospective partner would be interested in knowing if you were born with a male phenotype, or whether you are in fact more like my friend Cory?

PapaZoom said:
I don't care. It's meaningless to me and offensive. I won't have a small minority dictate to me how I identify my gender.

We're not. "Male" is a perfectly adequate identification for your gender and I don't think anyone has a problem with you using it. Cisgendered simply describes something else.

For what it's worth, if a friend of mine objected to being labeled "cisgendered" for personal reasons, I'd probably oblige. It's a reasonable thing, much like an African-American friend objecting to being called "black". But if the reason for this is "I don't think gender identity is a thing"... Then we're gonna have a problem. For what it's worth, I have little problem with just saying "not transgendered" if you'd prefer that.

Nor will I be dictated to on how to refer to the sexes. I identify as old school. A boy is a boy and a girl a girl. / the end

Care to mosey on down to my other thread and help us figure out how to determine which is which?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-we-define-man-and-woman.7942859/

PapaZoom said:
This snapshot from an article captures the madness of the transgendered madness

Instead, the court ruled that the school must tell all of its male students that their physical privacy isn’t as valuable as that of a single transgender student, and that they must be okay with a biological female using their restrooms, changing rooms, and locker rooms. They must immediately and without complaint surrender a right to physical privacy that has been assumed for centuries because of the objective differences between male and female bodies. And they don’t even get a “Sorry.”

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/434410/transgender-bathroom-madness

The female above refused a private accommodation because it caused her psychological stress.

But the psychological stress on her fellow students is unimportant. They must shut up and just deal with it.

And there are scores of people who can't see this as a problem.

So, just so we're clear here, a transgendered youth in the process of transitioning does not want to constantly have attention called to the fact that he is, in fact, transgendered by using a private bathroom. It's worth noting that individuals suffering from Gender Dysphoria attempt suicide at a rate of around 41% and face constant abuse and harassment due to their condition, and that being able to assimilate as a member of the gender one identifies with is an important part of therapy for the condition. It's also worth noting that a whopping 82% of trans individuals do not feel safe at school:

According to a study conducted by the National Center of Transgender Equality (2011):

82% of transgender youth report that they feel unsafe at school
44% of them had been abused physically (ex. punched, shoved, etc.)
67% of them had been bullied online
64% of them had their property stolen or destroyed

These numbers show that more than half of these students are being victimized on a regular basis. Although the treatment of LGBTQ children does vary across the country, that was a national study. Bullying is present all across the country, and it is almost guaranteed that no matter where they live, a transgendered child will encounter bullying at their school.

So at this point, it's really not that hard to understand why a single-stall restroom is not good enough. It's really not that hard to understand why a transgendered individual might not want to be "othered" in yet another way. So what's the competing interest? That some boys are afraid that a "girl" - who identifies as male, is transitioning, and has every reason to be as unobtrusive and unnoticed as possible - might "violate their privacy"? It's a bathroom. You go in there to urinate and defecate. It's not like she's demanding videotapes of their sexual activities. There are individual stalls with locking doors if you're worried about someone seeing you at the urinal, and I still have no idea why a transman who may or may not even like men would be a greater violation of privacy than, say, literally any gay or bisexual man (who I guarantee you have always been using the men's bathroom).

The fact is that according to the modern interpretation of the law, and according to the advice of organizations like the AMA, APA, AAP, WPATH, and WHO, Gavin Grimm is just as much a boy as I am. And I have absolutely no problem with that, and I don't understand why anyone else should. The shift here has been that slowly but surely, the law is catching up with the state of medicine and psychology.

SepiaAndDust · Apr 23, 2016

The Cadet said:
It's also worth noting that a whopping 82% of trans individuals do not feel safe at school:

According to a study conducted by the National Center of Transgender Equality (2011):

82% of transgender youth report that they feel unsafe at school

44% of them had been abused physically (ex. punched, shoved, etc.)

67% of them had been bullied online

64% of them had their property stolen or destroyed

I skimmed the article, but I didn't see a comparison with non-transgender students. Those numbers are about what I'd guess for any group of students.

Since Columbine and Sandy Hook, do any students really feel safe at school? Who hasn't been shoved or punched at school, especially in PE? What does bullied online even mean? Theft has always been a problem at schools (all three of my non-transgender kids have had things stolen in the past year). Without a comparison, I'm not sure that those numbers mean anything.

PapaZoom · Apr 23, 2016

The Cadet said:
My friend Cory identifies as male as well. However, she's not cisgendered. Obviously, "male" is a more immediately useful identifier, but this doesn't mean you aren't also cisgendered, and it doesn't mean that cisgendered is not a useful term for describing you in the context of the relationship between your sex and your gender identity. Perhaps a prospective partner would be interested in knowing if you were born with a male phenotype, or whether you are in fact more like my friend Cory?

There are folks who identify as parrots, cats, a dragon, and who knows what else. What you identify as doesn't make you what you are. If you were born male, you're a male. That's it. Forget the arguments about ambiguous genitalia. Those are exceptions. The kid in Kindergarten Cop had it right.

If you are born male, but say you identify as a female, you are in reality still a male. More accurately, you are a male that claims to be female. You're not a female just because you think you are. You are only if you really are.

So Bruce Jenner is in reality still a male. He dresses like a woman, grew some boobs, and wears dresses. He's a woman on paper only. He's not really a woman no matter how many people claim he is. His femaleness is a paper gender. Even if he had reassignment surgery, his vagina is just an inverted penis. Now he's free to live as he wants. That's his business. I'm just simply pointing out the fact that claiming an identity that doesn't correspond to reality won't change the fact of what is actually true. I can't put on a dress, shave my beard, get fake boobs and say I'm now a female. I'll just be a male in dress up.

We're not. "Male" is a perfectly adequate identification for your gender and I don't think anyone has a problem with you using it. Cisgendered simply describes something else.

Yes but it describes something else that doesn't correspond to reality. It's a word and it's meaningless.

For what it's worth, if a friend of mine objected to being labeled "cisgendered" for personal reasons, I'd probably oblige. It's a reasonable thing, much like an African-American friend objecting to being called "black". But if the reason for this is "I don't think gender identity is a thing"... Then we're gonna have a problem. For what it's worth, I have little problem with just saying "not transgendered" if you'd prefer that.

I don't accept transgender as a fact of nature. I accept that people believe in the concept of transgender but I reject that idea that it's actually something that is true. I know a 2nd grader that dresses like a girl. We've been told he's transgender. We're to refer to him as a she. Fine. But he's not really a she and never will be. He no more what he thinks he is than the woman who thinks she's a cat.

Care to mosey on down to my other thread and help us figure out how to determine which is which?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-we-define-man-and-woman.7942859/

I'll take a peek

So, just so we're clear here, a transgendered youth in the process of transitioning does not want to constantly have attention called to the fact that he is, in fact, transgendered by using a private bathroom. It's worth noting that individuals suffering from Gender Dysphoria attempt suicide at a rate of around 41% and face constant abuse and harassment due to their condition, and that being able to assimilate as a member of the gender one identifies with is an important part of therapy for the condition. It's also worth noting that a whopping 82% of trans individuals do not feel safe at school:

I'm well aware of what you pointed out above. When I first leaned of Gender Dysphoria I started reading up on it. I have even cooresponded with a transgendered author in order to help understand things from a transgender perspective.

You used some interesting words: "suffering" and "the condition." I don't suffer for being a male (I don't identify as male - I am a male) nor has it ever been considered a "condition" to be male. But apparently it's a condition to be transgendered? How is that normal then?

According to a study conducted by the National Center of Transgender Equality (2011):

82% of transgender youth report that they feel unsafe at school

44% of them had been abused physically (ex. punched, shoved, etc.)

67% of them had been bullied online

64% of them had their property stolen or destroyed

I would never tolerate any kind of abuse or intimidation of any kind for any person regardless of the why of it. This should concern us all and step should be taken to deal with such abuse problems. However, it doesn't legitimize the claim of transgenderism just because they are picked on. And the statistic of 41% suicide rate attempts should concern us all. It's also a fact that kids who identify as different from their birth gender revert back to their birth gender by in excess of 80% So it should be with great care and reservation that we approach the problem of Gender Dysphoria. Instead, I see an embracing of it. That is a huge mistake.

These numbers show that more than half of these students are being victimized on a regular basis. Although the treatment of LGBTQ children does vary across the country, that was a national study. Bullying is present all across the country, and it is almost guaranteed that no matter where they live, a transgendered child will encounter bullying at their school.

And that is unacceptable. However, it doesn't legitimize a claim of transgenderism as a real thing just because there is bullying over it. I don't believe a person is really a female just because they say they "feel" like they are. That said, I would not tolerate bullying of any kind.

So at this point, it's really not that hard to understand why a single-stall restroom is not good enough. It's really not that hard to understand why a transgendered individual might not want to be "othered" in yet another way.

A fair point. But it's also not hard to understand why girls might not want Steve with the penis in their locker room or bathroom. What's lost in this whole discussion is the majority of girls (and guys) that are also affected and put under stress.

So what's the competing interest? That some boys are afraid that a "girl" - who identifies as male, is transitioning, and has every reason to be as unobtrusive and unnoticed as possible - might "violate their privacy"? It's a bathroom.

If it's just a bathroom, go to the mall and walk in the woman's room and just stand at the mirror and wait for security to excort you out. It's not just a bathroom. There is an expectation of privacy and an expectation that males won't come into the girls room.

You go in there to urinate and defecate. It's not like she's demanding videotapes of their sexual activities. There are individual stalls with locking doors if you're worried about someone seeing you at the urinal, and I still have no idea why a transman who may or may not even like men would be a greater violation of privacy than, say, literally any gay or bisexual man (who I guarantee you have always been using the men's bathroom).

It's not that simple. If it is, then just use a neutral bathroom and be done with it.

The fact is that according to the modern interpretation of the law, and according to the advice of organizations like the AMA, APA, AAP, WPATH, and WHO, Gavin Grimm is just as much a boy as I am. And I have absolutely no problem with that, and I don't understand why anyone else should. The shift here has been that slowly but surely, the law is catching up with the state of medicine and psychology.

A boy is a boy if he has a penis and was born with it. That corresponds with reality and is nature's design. Gavin Grimm is not as much a boy as you or I. Gavin Grimm is a girl that claims she's a boy. It doesn't make her a boy in reality anymore than swimming in a pool makes one a fish. You are what you are and not what you claim unless the claim corresponds to what's really true. Gavin Grimm is a boy only on paper.

The Cadet · Apr 23, 2016

SepiaAndDust said:
I skimmed the article, but I didn't see a comparison with non-transgender students. Those numbers are about what I'd guess for any group of students.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/da...down-at-schools-but-more-students-feel-unsafe

...So, no, not really. 7.1% vs. 84% is a pretty big difference. I can't compare "doesn't feel safe at school" with "doesn't feel safe to the degree that they refused to go", but there's still a pretty huge gulf between those numbers. Similar figures can be found here. Your estimates seem extremely pessimistic, and somehow I doubt that a major bullying website would make a point of bringing up LGBT bullying if it wasn't an actual issue.

PapaZoom said:
There are folks who identify as parrots, cats, a dragon, and who knows what else. What you identify as doesn't make you what you are. If you were born male, you're a male. That's it. Forget the arguments about ambiguous genitalia. Those are exceptions. The kid in Kindergarten Cop had it right.

If you are born male, but say you identify as a female, you are in reality still a male. More accurately, you are a male that claims to be female. You're not a female just because you think you are. You are only if you really are.

Based on...?

No, seriously, I fail to see why this is a meaningful way to define "male" or "female". You are aware that there are numerous physiological components to gender identity, right? This isn't even really a matter for debate - transgendered people simply have differences in brain structure, hormone regulation, and more.

https://www.quora.com/What-makes-a-...-to-be-one-or-the-other/answer/Jae-Alexis-Lee

Scientifically, there really isn't any doubt that gender identity is a discrete thing. It's not just some PC invention to help the delusional, it's actually there. And given how prevalent it is in one's self-awareness, given that even very young children recognize on their own whether they are boys or girls based not on what's in their pants but apparently what's in their brains... Well, not only am I pretty sure that strict terms of "male" or "female" become increasingly blurry, even if we were to assume that, defining it entirely by whether you had a penis or a vagina when you were born would be a poor way to go about doing things... Even if it actually worked, because intersex people are a thing.

Meanwhile, do those other identities have any similar evidence base? Is there some structural issue in the brain that causes a man to think he's a parrot or a dragon or a night elf or an Apache Helicopter? Do people who believe they belong to these groups suffer dysphoria when they are unable or forbidden from living in accordance to their "identity"? There may be a cause for more research here, but there are numerous considerable differences here - for starters, there's simply no definition of "dragon" that has anything to do with what a person identifies as, whereas the definitions of "male" and "female" actually have legitimate problems and may need rethinking.

PapaZoom said:
Yes but it describes something else that doesn't correspond to reality.

You are simply factually in error. There's no nicer way to put this - what you are saying is factually inaccurate. Gender identity is a very real thing, and pretending it isn't does not diminish that fact.

PapaZoom said:
It's also a fact that kids who identify as different from their birth gender revert back to their birth gender by in excess of 80%

This figure seems to come from this paper. It has a handful of noteworthy methodological problems, not least of which is the sample size of 25 - a little on the small size, if you ask me, particularly for such a counterintuitive result. Like, just for comparison, this article talks about a study with a sample size of 55 where the number was not over 80%, but rather 0%. Weird, huh? Maybe the beta blockers would cause that, but given that they don't cause gender dysphoria in those who aren't transgender, it seems like an iffy proposal.

PapaZoom said:
You used some interesting words: "suffering" and "the condition." I don't suffer for being a male (I don't identify as male - I am a male) nor has it ever been considered a "condition" to be male. But apparently it's a condition to be transgendered? How is that normal then?

Gender Dysphoria is a recognized mental disorder, wherein the misalignment of your gender with your sex causes the more general condition of dysphoria. It's typically resolved by bringing your sex in line with your gender, as we currently know of no way to bring one's gender in alignment with one's sex.

PapaZoom said:
It's not that simple. If it is, then just use a neutral bathroom and be done with it.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with gender-neutral bathrooms, changing rooms, whatever. What I have a problem with is forcing trans individuals to use those facilities when they are not the norm and not used by other people, thus outing them as trans.

SepiaAndDust · Apr 23, 2016

The Cadet said:
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/da...down-at-schools-but-more-students-feel-unsafe

...So, no, not really. 7.1% vs. 84% is a pretty big difference. I can't compare "doesn't feel safe at school" with "doesn't feel safe to the degree that they refused to go", but there's still a pretty huge gulf between those numbers. Similar figures can be found here. Your estimates seem extremely pessimistic....

All three of those sites are measuring different things, so I don't think that the numbers from any one can be compared to the numbers from either of the others.

I doubt that a major bullying website would make a point of bringing up LGBT bullying if it wasn't an actual issue.

Honestly, I'd wonder about a major bullying website that doesn't publish a comparison. Generally, you'll see a ...compared to blah blah blah percent of non-whatever students. Without that, their numbers are only worth their face-value; nothing more can be surmised.

PapaZoom · Apr 23, 2016

The Cadet said:
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/da...down-at-schools-but-more-students-feel-unsafe

...So, no, not really. 7.1% vs. 84% is a pretty big difference. I can't compare "doesn't feel safe at school" with "doesn't feel safe to the degree that they refused to go", but there's still a pretty huge gulf between those numbers. Similar figures can be found here. Your estimates seem extremely pessimistic, and somehow I doubt that a major bullying website would make a point of bringing up LGBT bullying if it wasn't an actual issue.

bullying is an issue across the board and I don't deny it exists

Based on...?

biology....if you're a male biologically, you're a male. If you are a male and identify as a female, the best you can do is be a cosmetic female. Kris Jenner is still a biological male. He identifies as a female. He's basically a biological male that's dressed up as a woman and got a boob job. Nothing will make him fully female unless he actually is that.

No, seriously, I fail to see why this is a meaningful way to define "male" or "female". You are aware that there are numerous physiological components to gender identity, right? This isn't even really a matter for debate - transgendered people simply have differences in brain structure, hormone regulation, and more.

The science is still too young on this issue to make definitive statements. I don't deny there's a real thing called gender dysphoria. But it's a condition. You can't make yourself a real female if you were born a male. You can at best, be one on paper and one cosmetically.

One transgendered male grew up, got married, but he had many situations where he was told he really was a female. He was married and with children when he finally gave in to his transgenderism. He left his wife and went for the surgery. 7 years later he realized it was all untrue. He was now a male with a vagina and boobs. He called his female gender "Paper Gender" and that became the name of a book he wrote.

https://www.quora.com/What-makes-a-...-to-be-one-or-the-other/answer/Jae-Alexis-Lee

Scientifically, there really isn't any doubt that gender identity is a discrete thing. It's not just some PC invention to help the delusional, it's actually there.

It may be a real thing in that the person "identifies" as a gender that differs from their birth gender. But that won't change the fact that biologically they are still their birth gender. And it many not be a PC invention but it is clearly driven by PC activism.

And given how prevalent it is in one's self-awareness, given that even very young children recognize on their own whether they are boys or girls based not on what's in their pants but apparently what's in their brains... Well, not only am I pretty sure that strict terms of "male" or "female" become increasingly blurry, even if we were to assume that, defining it entirely by whether you had a penis or a vagina when you were born would be a poor way to go about doing things... Even if it actually worked, because intersex people are a thing.

A huge percentage of young children who identify as a gender different from their birth gender return to their birth gender after puberty. And young children by and large actually recognize that a boy has a penis and girls a vagina. Girls understand that there's a difference between them and boys even at an early age. Boys especially understand this. I see this fact play out every day in my work. I've seen it professionally for nearly 30 years with only a few exceptions. And in my nearly 30 years in education, I've only known of one transgendered child.

Meanwhile, do those other identities have any similar evidence base? Is there some structural issue in the brain that causes a man to think he's a parrot or a dragon or a night elf or an Apache Helicopter? Do people who believe they belong to these groups suffer dysphoria when they are unable or forbidden from living in accordance to their "identity"? There may be a cause for more research here, but there are numerous considerable differences here - for starters, there's simply no definition of "dragon" that has anything to do with what a person identifies as, whereas the definitions of "male" and "female" actually have legitimate problems and may need rethinking.

Lots more research must be done to fully understand all these anomalies.

You are simply factually in error. There's no nicer way to put this - what you are saying is factually inaccurate. Gender identity is a very real thing, and pretending it isn't does not diminish that fact.

I am factually correct in saying that while gender identity is a very real thing, the fact that a person born male now identifies as a female does not make that person actually female. They are still and always will be biologically a male.

This figure seems to come from this paper. It has a handful of noteworthy methodological problems, not least of which is the sample size of 25 - a little on the small size, if you ask me, particularly for such a counterintuitive result. Like, just for comparison, this article talks about a study with a sample size of 55 where the number was not over 80%, but rather 0%. Weird, huh? Maybe the beta blockers would cause that, but given that they don't cause gender dysphoria in those who aren't transgender, it seems like an iffy proposal.

there's always methodological problems when findings don't fit the current narrative.

Gender Dysphoria is a recognized mental disorder, wherein the misalignment of your gender with your sex causes the more general condition of dysphoria. It's typically resolved by bringing your sex in line with your gender, as we currently know of no way to bring one's gender in alignment with one's sex.

If it's a mental disorder it's on the same level as anorexia. Something's not right. And I don't accept this idea of gender that is currently being promoted by the LGBT activists. The reason I reject this is that not only can a person be a biological male but identify as a female, but according to the "experts" gender is fluid. You can be a boy on Monday, a girl on Tuesday, back to male on Wednesday, but on Thursday you can claim to be non-binary! So you're neither a male OR a female. You are a non-binary. This concept is madness but it's where we are at. It's being taught to teachers around the USA as truth.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with gender-neutral bathrooms, changing rooms, whatever. What I have a problem with is forcing trans individuals to use those facilities when they are not the norm and not used by other people, thus outing them as trans.

If it isn't know that the person identifying as female is actually a male, they can use the ladies' room. However, if, like in the case of the 16th year old boy who at 17 declared to be a transgendered girl and now wants to use the girls shower room, it is known that "she's" really a male, I say no. Sorry but you're not going to put a whole school of girls who know you're really a boy at a discomfort level. If you can't use a private facility then you're out of luck. As for being outed as trans, that's actually a weak argument. If it's not known, there's no harm. But if it's obvious that the person in the bathroom isn't supposed to be there, that's a problem.

.Mikha'el. · Apr 23, 2016

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