"In The Beginning was THE WORD..."

SaintPhotios · Dec 11, 2007

Perhaps I missed something, but exactly what is the purpose of this thread? Is there something being disputed?

Steve Petersen · Dec 11, 2007

Sherha said:
You are mistaken.

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." Ex 3:14.."

When Jesus said, "I AM the Bread of life...The way, the truth and the life...the Door...The Jews knew, that, He was declaring Himself to be eternal God.

In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called, "The Mighty God," "The Everlasting Father."

He called the temple His house .Mt 21:13. He forgave sin. Mk 2:5.

"In the beginning was THE WORD and THE WORD was with God and THE WORD WAS GOD...and THE WORD became flesh and dwelt among us..." John 1

If you do not believe Jesus to be God in the flesh, then, you are, still, in your sin.

So everytime Jesus uses the words 'I am' you think he is intentionally invoking the Holy Name of God? Wonder where that thought might lead?

Sherha · Dec 13, 2007

In the Greek, it does not say, "a god."

If you say, that, Jesus is "a god," you are preaching a different Jesus, than the one in the Word of God:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, (Moroni?) preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Ga 1:8

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL..." 2 Cor 11:4.

This is the Lord Jesus Christ, that, the Scripture teaches:

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is GOD WITH US." Mt 1:23.

scriptures · Dec 15, 2007

John 1:1 did not say Jesus is God himself....

word for word translation is "and God was the word".....

scriptures · Dec 15, 2007

"a god" is a better translation because a distinction between God himself and the Word was more visible....

"and the Word was God" is correct provided you understand that it is use as adjective rather than noun...

Meaning the Word was not God himself but a divine being...

Sherha · Dec 18, 2007

JESUS:

THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, & JACOB. Mt 22:32.

CREATOR GOD: John 1:3.

The Way, The Truth, The Life: John 14:6.

The Alpha & Omega. Rev 1:8,11.

THE JUDGE. 2 Tim 4:1; John 5:22; 9:39.

The Light of the world. John 1:9; 8:12.

Messiah. John 1:41.

THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER. Isa 9:6.

Lord. Mt 7:21; Mt 3:3; Lu 6:46...

THE ALMIGHTY. Rev 1:8.

Prince of Life. Acts 3:15; 5:31.

Son of God. Lu 1:35; Mt 16:16; 17:5...

BEFORE ABRAHAM. John 8:58.

Resurrection & The Life. John 11:25.

King of Kings. 1 Tim 6:14,15; Rev 19:16.

KING ETERNAL, IMMORTAL...1 Tim 1:16,17

Lord of lords. 1 Tim 6:14,15.

Only Potentate. 1 Tim 6:14,15.

EMMANUEL - GOD WITH US. Mt 1:23.

FORGAVE SIN. Mt 9:2, 5, 6

"...HIS DEAR SON...WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD..." Col 1:19

"For it pleased the Father that in Him should all the fullness dwell." Col 1:19.

"And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD." Rev 19:13.

"Even so, COME LORD JESUS." Rev 22:20.

scriptures · Dec 18, 2007

Matthew 22:32 was intended for the God of Jesus and not Jesus himself.....

I think you should consider context before posting .....

thank you

Sherha · Dec 20, 2007

These references make it clear, that, the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one God.

MrGoodbar · Dec 21, 2007

scriptures said:
John 1:1 did not say Jesus is God himself....

word for word translation is "and God was the word".....

This is incorrect. The definite article transliterated "ho" connotes that logos is the subject, not God.

Additionally, "The word was a God" is a mistranslation which can only be made if one ignores every possible contextual clue.

scriptures · Dec 22, 2007

MrGoodbar said:
This is incorrect. The definite article transliterated "ho" connotes that logos is the subject, not God.

Additionally, "The word was a God" is a mistranslation which can only be made if one ignores every possible contextual clue.

Granted "the logos is the subject" then God is the predicate......

In the phrase "and the Word was God", does the title God here refers to Identity or Description?

scriptures · Dec 22, 2007

Sherha said:
These references make it clear, that, the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one God.

(Matthew 22:29-33) 29 In reply Jesus said to them: "YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God; 30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven. 31 As regards the resurrection of the dead, did YOU not read what was spoken to YOU by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living." 33 On hearing [that], the crowds were astounded at his teaching.

We can see here that Jesus quoted from the scriptures, particularly Ex 3:6....

Whenever I quote from the scriptures for example Ex. 3:6 it does not mean that "God" in that text refers to me... and so with Christ who merely quoted from the scriptures....

Thank you...

MrGoodbar · Dec 22, 2007

scriptures said:
Granted "the logos is the subject" then God is the predicate......

In the phrase "and the Word was God", does the title God here refers to Identity or Description?

I'm not sure what you're asking here with Identity or Description. Either way, John writes this gospel to show that Jesus is God, one with the Father, not a separate "god." It would be extremely poor hermeneutics to attempt to insert the article "a" here.

MrGoodbar · Dec 22, 2007

scriptures said:
(Matthew 22:29-33) 29 In reply Jesus said to them: "YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God; 30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven. 31 As regards the resurrection of the dead, did YOU not read what was spoken to YOU by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living." 33 On hearing [that], the crowds were astounded at his teaching.

We can see here that Jesus quoted from the scriptures, particularly Ex 3:6....

Whenever I quote from the scriptures for example Ex. 3:6 it does not mean that "God" in that text refers to me... and so with Christ who merely quoted from the scriptures....

Thank you...

While you might not refer to yourself in the 3rd person, Christ frequently did, whether referring to himself as the "Son of God," the "Son of Man" or simply the "son."

scriptures · Dec 23, 2007

MrGoodbar said:
I'm not sure what you're asking here with Identity or Description. Either way, John writes this gospel to show that Jesus is God, one with the Father, not a separate "god." It would be extremely poor hermeneutics to attempt to insert the article "a" here.

No, it is not either way, I think it is the key in understanding this particular verse....

I think John did not say that the Word was God himself...

I think the phrase " and the Word was God" has qualitative significance...

That is the reason why some translators have a different rendition of this verse...

For Example:

"The Logos was divine," (Moffatt)

"the Word was divine," (Goodspeed);

These translations and that of the JWs makes it clear that Jesus is not God himself but someone who is Godlike....

scriptures · Dec 23, 2007

MrGoodbar said:
While you might not refer to yourself in the 3rd person, Christ frequently did, whether referring to himself as the "Son of God," the "Son of Man" or simply the "son."

But never as God himself....

MrGoodbar · Dec 24, 2007

scriptures said:
No, it is not either way, I think it is the key in understanding this particular verse....

I think John did not say that the Word was God himself...

I think the phrase " and the Word was God" has qualitative significance...

That is the reason why some translators have a different rendition of this verse...

For Example:

"The Logos was divine," (Moffatt)

"the Word was divine," (Goodspeed);

These translations and that of the JWs makes it clear that Jesus is not God himself but someone who is Godlike....

The JW's MISTRANSLATION makes the same error the two you cited makes. "Theos" in the greek translates rather simply to "God." Moreover, it is a noun, used here as the predicate, not an adjective to describe the condition of the subject. Using it to say "divine" is a theological invention, not translational.

I think its apparent that John is describing EXACTLY that the "word was God."

Since the text says exactly this in literal translation, the burden is on you to prove that that isn't what he meant.

MrGoodbar · Dec 24, 2007

scriptures said:
But never as God himself....

I'm sorry, but one of the primary arguments of John's gospel is that Jesus is God.

If not, why did the Pharisees attempt to stone Jesus after he says "Before Abraham was, I am" in John 8:58?

scriptures · Dec 25, 2007

(John 1:1)

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

The Greek word θεός (the·os´) is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article.

The God with whom the Word, or Logos, was originally is designated here by the Greek expression ο θεός, that is, the·os´ preceded by the definite article ho.

A singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb points to a quality about someone.

I believe that the text merely expresses a certain quality about the Logos, but it does not identify him as one and the same as God himself.

I believe this explaination from the JWs because a contrast with God himself and the Logos was made and verse 2 is clearer to me...

(John 1:2) This one was in [the] beginning with God.

Yes, The Logos was with his God...

Therefore the Logos was not God himself but someone who is like God..

Victorious1 · Dec 26, 2007

MrGoodbar said:
The JW's MISTRANSLATION makes the same error the two you cited makes. "Theos" in the greek translates rather simply to "God." Moreover, it is a noun, used here as the predicate, not an adjective to describe the condition of the subject. Using it to say "divine" is a theological invention, not translational.

I think its apparent that John is describing EXACTLY that the "word was God."

Since the text says exactly this in literal translation, the burden is on you to prove that that isn't what he meant.

John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word [logos] was with God, and the Word [logos] was God."

The question of John 1:1 is who is "the Word" or what is "the Word" (logos). Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God...." God alone was from the beginning.

How does God who is "Spirit" communicate Himself as "the Word," logos, with man who is flesh? Human beings communicate with each other by way of symbols, be they spoken words, pictures or sign language. These symbols communicate ideas or thoughts. But Spirit cannot communicate with mind, senses or reason as spirit and senses are two separate and well-defined categories.

John 3:6-8:

6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

Spirit and flesh are in two different realms and each one must stay within its own boundaries. Spirit can communicate with spirit only, and flesh by way of the senses can communicate only with senses in the material realm. How then does God overcome these communication barriers?

God who is spirit manifested Himself to man in three ways:

by His spirit which was upon people in the Old Testament and which is in those who are born again during this age of grace;
by His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ;
3) by His Word, both the written and spoken.

For God (Spirit), to manifest Himself in the world of the flesh, He had to use a concrete form for senses man to recognize. God gave the revealed Word so that man by his natural faculties might be able to understand the communication from God. When John 1:1 says, "and the Word was with God," it refers to the manifested, revealed logos:

the written Word which has come to us as the Bible and
the created Word which is Jesus Christ. "In the beginning was the Word [God] and the revealed Word was with God."

How was this revealed Word with God? The Word was with God in His foreknowledge. God is omniscient, knowing all things: He knew from before the foundation of the world, that the man which He formed, made and created would sin; He knew from before the foundation of the world that Jesus Christ would redeem man; He knew from before the foundation of the world that it would be possible for man to be born again; He knows our end as well as our beginning. John 1:1 literally says the revealed "Word was with God" in His foreknowledge, the revealed Word was with God in His foreknowledge; the revealed Word was later to be manifested in writing (as the Bible), and in the flesh as Jesus Christ.

How was Jesus with God in the beginning? In the same way the written Word was with Him; namely, in God's foreknowledge. The reason Jesus Christ is the Word and is called in the Bible the logos is that he was God's plan for man's redemption and salvation. The subject of the entire Bible is God who revealed Himself most completely in His Son, Jesus Christ, the redeemer of man. In the Old Testament Jesus was in God's foreknowledge, and in the foreknowledge of God's people as God revealed this prophetic knowledge to them. When Jesus Christ was born, he came into existence. Foreknowledge began a reality.

God, who is Spirit, in order to manifest Himself in concretion, had to reveal Himself and His will in words and in His Son, Jesus Christ. God's communication of Himself as the logos]/I], the revealed written and spoken Word, came into manifestation when "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (II Peter 1:21). And when the fullness of time came, Jesus Christ who was God's communication of Himself in the flesh was born; John 1:14: And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth."

MrGoodbar · Dec 27, 2007

scriptures said:
(John 1:1)
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

The Greek word θεός (the·os´) is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article.

The God with whom the Word, or Logos, was originally is designated here by the Greek expression ο θεός, that is, the·os´ preceded by the definite article ho.

A singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb points to a quality about someone.

I believe that the text merely expresses a certain quality about the Logos, but it does not identify him as one and the same as God himself.

I believe this explaination from the JWs because a contrast with God himself and the Logos was made and verse 2 is clearer to me...

(John 1:2) This one was in [the] beginning with God.

Yes, The Logos was with his God...

Therefore the Logos was not God himself but someone who is like God..

Respectfully, this is theology influencing translation.

I don't agree with the statement about an anarthrous noun preceeding a verb. Its a statement made to defend a position. The statement made by John is not some categorical simile reference. There are words in the greek for that, and they are not here.

How do you answer the context of the other sections of John, namely "before Abraham was, I am?" The action of Jesus walking on the water, of his speech about "the good shepherd..." etc...

"In The Beginning was THE WORD..."

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