impossible to renew unto repentance (Heb.6:3-6)

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 21, 2018

ClementofA said:
I said 6:9 But we are persuaded of better things concerning you, beloved.....

you said...Concerning them, but not stated concerning all "those" (v.4) who qualify under the description in 6:4-8.

It’s concerning those who have already laid the foundation by leaving a negative situation to enter into a positive one by:
repentance from dead works into faith in God,
separated by baptism into identification with Holy things
resurrection from the dead into eternal destiny

If one has experienced these 4 items it is impossible for that person to renew the repentance again just because that person has fallen once….

Click to expand...

Perhaps it's impossible to renew them (a) because God does not permit it (v.3, " if God permits") or (b) only "while" they "crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" (v.6).

a) God doesn’t permit them to be be brought on to perfection, to maturity, in not laying again the foundation? That doesn’t seem likely. The saying is the same as “we will do such and such tomorrow if God permits” James 4:15
b) it’s impossible because it’s not necessary for Christ to be crucified again.

It's impossible for them to crucify the Son of God again and put Him to open shame, even if that person wishes to do so…..

Click to expand...

In most versions it says they do "crucify the Son of God again and put Him to open shame":
And that is given as the - reason - why they cannot be renewed to repentance.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,
2 Peter 2:20
If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through their knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first.
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin. There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin.

Unless it’s THAT SIN there is a return that God says He will give.

If a person falls, it doesn't mean that they have forsaken the course that they were on…..

Click to expand...

In the context of verses 4-8 it sounds quite a lot more serious than a merely unintentional or spontaneous sin.

What they’ve fallen away from is God’s way. Anything else is sin no matter the degree.

ClementofA · Jul 21, 2018

~Cassia~ said:
It’s concerning those who have already laid the foundation by leaving a negative situation to enter into a positive one by:
repentance from dead works into faith in God,
separated by baptism into identification with Holy things
resurrection from the dead into eternal destiny

My point is the writer of Hebrews is persuaded of better things regarding those to whom he wrote, but he doesn't say that concerning those of verses 4-8. Verse 9 makes a distinction between the two. As does verse 3ff, re going on to maturity, if God permit. And then giving the exception (vs.4-6) where God does not permit. Rather than going on to maturity, those such as are described in vs 4-6 are going in the opposite direction, having need of restoration to repentance once again.

~Cassia~ said:
a) God doesn’t permit them to be be brought on to perfection, to maturity, in not laying again the foundation? That doesn’t seem likely. The saying is the same as “we will do such and such tomorrow if God permits” James 4:15

It's impossible to renew them to repentance while they continue to do what verse 6 says:

Heb 6:4a For it is impossible for those once enlightened...
Heb 6:6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
Heb 6:6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy.

~Cassia~ said:
b) it’s impossible because it’s not necessary for Christ to be crucified again.

Many versions clearly state the reason why it's impossible, e.g.:

Heb 6:4a For it is impossible for those once enlightened...
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The passage actually says they are crucifying Christ again - in/to/for themselves:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/6-6.htm

Obviously not literally, but figuratively. As Barnes says:

Seeing - This word is not in the Greek, though the sense is expressed. The Greek literally is, "having again crucified to themselves the Son of God." The "reason" here given is, that the crime would be so great, and they would so effectually exclude themselves from the only plan of salvation, that they could not be saved. There is but one way of salvation. Having tried that, and then renounced it, how could they then be saved? The case is like that of a drowning man. If there was but one plank by which he could be saved, and he should get on that and then push it away and plunge into the deep, he must die. Or if there was but one rope by which the shore could be reached from a wreck, and he should cut that and cast it off, he must die. Or if a man were sick, and there was but one kind of medicine that could possibly restore him, and he should deliberately dash that away, he must die. So in religion. There is "but one" way of salvation. If a man deliberately rejects that, he must perish.

They crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh - Our translators have rendered this as if the Greek were - ἀνασταυροῦντας πάλιν anastaurountas palin - "crucify again," and so it is rendered by Chrysostom, by Tyndale, Coverdale, Beza, Luther, and others. But this is not properly the meaning of the Greek. The word ἀνασταυρόω anastauroō - is an "intensive" word, and is employed instead of the usual word "to crucify" only to denote "emphasis." It means that such an act of apostasy would be equivalent to crucifying him in an aggravated manner. Of course this is to be taken "figuratively." It could not be literally true that they would thus crucify the Redeemer. The meaning is, that their conduct would be "as if" they had crucified him; it would bear a strong resemblance to the act by which the Lord Jesus was publicly rejected and condemned to die. The act of crucifying the Son of God was the great crime which outpeers any other deed of human guilt. Yet the apostle says that should they who had been true Christians fall away and reject him, they would be guilty of a similar crime. It would be a public and solemn act of rejecting him. It would show that if they had been there they would have joined in the cry "crucify him, crucify him." The "intensity and aggravation" of such a crime perhaps the apostle meant to indicate by the intensive or emphatic ἀνὰ ana in the word ἀνασταυροῦντας anastaurountas. Such an act would render their salvation impossible, because:

(1) the crime would be aggravated beyond that of those who rejected him and put him to death - for they knew not what they did; and,

(2) because it would be a rejection of the only possible plan of salvation after they had had experience of its power and known its efficacy.

The phrase "to themselves," Tyndale readers, "as concerning themselves." Others, "as far as in them lies," or as far as they have ability to do. Others, "to their own heart." Probably Grotius has suggested the true sense. "They do it for themselves. They make the act their own. It is as if they did it themselves; and they are to he regarded as having done the deed." So we make the act of another our own when we authorize it beforehand, or approve of it after it is done.

And put him to an open shame - Make him a public example; or hold him up as worthy of death on the cross; see the same word explained in the notes on Matthew 1:19, in the phrase "make her a public example." The word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. Their apostasy and rejection of the Saviour would be like holding him up publicly as deserving the infamy and ignominy of the cross. A great part of the crime attending the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus, consisted in exhibiting him to the passing multitude as deserving the death of a malefactor. Of that sin they would partake who should reject him, for they would thus show that they regarded his religion as an imposture, and would in a public manner hold him up as worthy only of rejection and contempt. Such, it seems to me, is the fair meaning of this much-disputed passage - a passage which would never have given so much perplexity if it had not been supposed that the obvious interpretation would interfere with some prevalent articles of theology. The passage "proves" that if true Christians should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew and save them.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/6-6.htm

~Cassia~ said:
Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,

There is no further sacrifice for both sinners and saints:

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, no longer is there an offering for sin.

Heb.10:26-29 is a very similar pasage to Heb.6:4-8. Neither rule out a future return to God.

~Cassia~ said:
2 Peter 2:20
If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through their knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first.

20 For if, while fleeing from the defilements of the world by the recognition of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet, being again involved in these, they are being discomfited, their last state has become worse than the first.

The word "last" (2 Pet.2:20) is not referring to a "final condition", but merely the "latter" condition of the two in the contrast:

"When two are contrasted it is equivalent to the latter, opposed to ὁ πρῶτοςthe former (Deuteronomy 24:1-4): thus τά ἔργα (opposed to τῶν πρώτων), Revelation 2:19; ἡ πλάνη, Matthew 27:64(where the meaning is, 'lest the latter deception, caused by the false story of his resurrection, do more harm than the former, which was about to produce belief in a false Messiah');..." http://biblehub.com/greek/2078.htm
https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/2078.html

~Cassia~ said:
What they’ve fallen away from is God’s way. Anything else is sin no matter the degree.

In context the falling away is from the positive things of vs.4-5, putting them in need of being renewed again to "repentance" (v.6) which is the first listed foundation of Christian faith (v.1).

"In the Scriptures, to fall away (from the true faith): from the worship of Jehovah, Ezekiel 14:13; Ezekiel 15:8 (for מָעַל); from Christianity, Hebrews 6:6."
https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/3895.html
http://biblehub.com/greek/3895.htm

Hillsage · Jul 21, 2018

I quit switching between the half truth of Calvinisim and the half truth of Armenianism long ago. I became a Calmenian after coming to the revelation of a 5th POV which unites the two half truths into a unifying whole.

Let's start by reading Heb 6 'in context'. WE learn in verse one that by verse 4 we are no longer talking about the "ELEMENTARY doctrine of Christ" which leaves one in IMMATURITY.....

HEB 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

OK, so we've just laid to rest Which 'elementary doctrine'? We repented ONCE for a salvation that was ONCE and for ever. Can't lay it again because that was 'the foundation' that you now have to BUILD upon, and it was a good foundation because it is the ROCK OF CHRIST.

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So if it was even possible to lose this 'foundational Christ salvation', this verse above says you can't lay another one. So now all you can do 'in context' is build on that permanent foundation with works fathered from 'heaven or hell's influence'. NO MORE GETTING 'BORN AGAIN...and AGAIN and AGAIN'.

1 CO 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw --

Now, let's go back to the context of Heb 6, going past all the scriptures people use to prove you aren't saved anymore. WE are NOT the good works/vegetation produced 'in context', 'ON the land'. Land which receives....not salvation, but a "blessing"...if they're GOOD WORKS/useful vegetation.

HEB 6:7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.

Neither are WE the bad works/vegetation of the devil, which are to be cursed and burned.

HEB 6:8 But if it (THE LAND) bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

I live in FARM LAND country. And you know what they do here? They BURN the fields/ground/LAND. Do you want to know why? Because it's GOOD to burn the LAND. I just burned my Buffalo Grass yard last week too, and you know what was left? THE LAND. Didn't hurt my 'damned' land one bit. It purifies the dead grass/works, and that enhances the spring growth to be better. HELLO out there, my 'land' didn't go to Hell, just the weeds and dead grass was destroyed.

And that's the rest of the Hebrew 6 story IN CONTEXT beyond verse 4. And that's why those, who's theology is contextually short sighted can't see beyond verse 4, you then think you lost your FIRST SALVATION because of your sinful works built on the FOUNDATION which is CHRIST.

Sin doesn't make you a 'non Christian'...just a BAD Christian WITNESS.

Also needed is this understanding is rightly dividing the salvation of the spirit versus the soul. Which also sheds light on the "US IN Christ" salvation versus "Christ IN US" salvation. It also explains when scripture speaks of being "OF the faith" versus continuing "IN the faith".

The view has worked for me, enduring decades of testing it with the totality of scripture.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 22, 2018

ClementofA said:
My point is the writer of Hebrews is persuaded of better things regarding those to whom he wrote, but he doesn't say that concerning those of verses 4-8. Verse 9 makes a distinction between the two. As does verse 3ff, re going on to maturity, if God permit. And then giving the exception (vs.4-6) where God does not permit. Rather than going on to maturity, those such as are described in vs 4-6 are going in the opposite direction, having need of restoration to repentance once again.

Some are babes in Christ and in need of teaching again the rudiments of the faith vs those who have gone on to maturity. (in need of milk vs those able to receive solid food.) Is that what you mean or am I still missing something?

If so it seems they are admonished to not just hold on to what they have because of it’s insufficiency to the furthering of the Christian life (being unhealthy for growth and progress to not advance in obedience and the experience of power.) The former are builders who build the foundation w/o building walls or ceiling. Yet they insist on calling it a finished work.

Can’t have a building (in this case God’s building of the person) w/o a foundation but anyone resting content in that can’t be pleasing to God either and for good reason they doubt their salvation. Yet again He who began a good work in you …..

It's impossible to renew them to repentance while they continue to do what verse 6 says:

Heb 6:4a For it is impossible for those once enlightened...

Heb 6:6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,

Heb 6:6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy.

There is no safety except in advance in life. To stand still is to retreat. We’re told not to be those who shrink back but to press on to maturity. The aim of every true Christian is a steady effort to get to know Him more. So the whole point of the argument from the case of those who fall away is ___ let us press on to perfection.

Many versions clearly state the reason why it's impossible, e.g.:

Heb 6:4a For it is impossible for those once enlightened...

Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The goal culminates in Hebrews 11 with the examples of the perseverance of the saints. Most never attained to that which their faith was set upon but they looked toward Him that is faithful. The divine side of the truth is John 10:28. But if, like the old covenant, they just had just given lip service w/o a renewed heart it would avail them nothing. The wave offering wasn’t officially accepted by God until Christ, but those of that covenant were saved thru the promise. How much more are we accountable to make our own salvation sure. Again it’s the circumcised heart in comparison to the heart of stone. The only way to make that salvation sure is thru perseverance. Because of the foundational good work that had begun.

The two sides of the coin also pertain to the kingdom and eternity that neither calvinists nor armenians recognise because of the lack of belief in rewards and lack thereof.

The passage actually says they are crucifying Christ again - in/to/for themselves:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/6-6.htm

Obviously not literally, but figuratively. As Barnes says:

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/6-6.htm

'on their own initiative’ they attempt to crucify Jesus once again. Impossible.

Barnes says “The phrase "to themselves," Tyndale readers, "as concerning themselves." Others, "as far as in them lies," or as far as they have ability to do. Others, "to their own heart." Probably Grotius has suggested the true sense. "They do it for themselves. They make the act their own. It is as if they did it themselves; and they are to he regarded as having done the deed." So we make the act of another our own when we authorize it beforehand, or approve of it after it is done.”

There is no further sacrifice for both sinners and saints:

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, no longer is there an offering for sin.

Heb.10:26-29 is a very similar pasage to Heb.6:4-8. Neither rule out a future return to God.

I agree that neither rule out a future return to God.

20 For if, while fleeing from the defilements of the world by the recognition of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet, being again involved in these, they are being discomfited, their last state has become worse than the first.

The word "last" (2 Pet.2:20) is not referring to a "final condition", but merely the "latter" condition of the two in the contrast:

ookk, I think I’m not getting your stance on this. I'll get back to the rest of the post but I have my granddaughter with me and I'd like to look into it further.

“When two are contrasted it is equivalent to the latter, opposed to ὁ πρῶτοςthe former (Deuteronomy 24:1-4): thus τά ἔργα (opposed to τῶν πρώτων), Revelation 2:19; ἡ πλάνη, Matthew 27:64(where the meaning is, 'lest the latter deception, caused by the false story of his resurrection, do more harm than the former, which was about to produce belief in a false Messiah');..." http://biblehub.com/greek/2078.htm

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/2078.html

In context the falling away is from the positive things of vs.4-5, putting them in need of being renewed again to "repentance" (v.6) which is the first listed foundation of Christian faith (v.1).

"In the Scriptures, to fall away (from the true faith): from the worship of Jehovah, Ezekiel 14:13; Ezekiel 15:8 (for מָעַל); from Christianity, Hebrews 6:6."

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/3895.html

http://biblehub.com/greek/3895.htm

[/QUOTE]

ClementofA · Jul 22, 2018

~Cassia~ said:
Some are babes in Christ and in need of teaching again the rudiments of the faith vs those who have gone on to maturity. (in need of milk vs those able to receive solid food.) Is that what you mean or am I still missing something?

I'm suggesting those of Heb.6:4-6 have lost their repentance, faith & salvation. While some are encouraged to go on from the basics to maturity/perfection, others cannot since they've already gone in the opposite direction, from the basics to being without the basics/without salvation. And it's impossible for them to even come back to being saved while they crucify in themselves the Lord & put Him to open shame. As I said:

My point is the writer of Hebrews is persuaded of better things regarding those to whom he wrote, but he doesn't say that concerning those of verses 4-8. Verse 9 makes a distinction between the two. As does verse 3ff, re going on to maturity, if God permit. And then giving the exception (vs.4-6) where God does not permit. Rather than going on to maturity, those such as are described in vs 4-6 are going in the opposite direction, having need of restoration to repentance once again.

~Cassia~ said:
'on their own initiative’ they attempt to crucify Jesus once again. Impossible.

Barnes notes:

"It means that such an act of apostasy would be equivalent to crucifying him in an aggravated manner. Of course this is to be taken "figuratively." It could not be literally true that they would thus crucify the Redeemer. The meaning is, that their conduct would be "as if" they had crucified him; it would bear a strong resemblance to the act by which the Lord Jesus was publicly rejected and condemned to die...Yet the apostle says that should they who had been true Christians fall away and reject him, they would be guilty of a similar crime. It would be a public and solemn act of rejecting him. It would show that if they had been there they would have joined in the cry "crucify him, crucify him." " http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/6-6.htm

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

~Cassia~ said:
'on their own initiative’ they attempt to crucify Jesus once again. Impossible.

Why impossible ?
It is stated clearly by Yahweh, as is the destruction of those who re-crucify Christ daily. (not impossible, but rather common on earth)

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jul 22, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Why impossible ?
It is stated clearly by Yahweh, as is the destruction of those who re-crucify Christ daily. (not impossible, but rather common on earth)

It's impossible to even think that Christ's death is not enough. Yet some still do.

FatalHeart · Jul 22, 2018

It says in 1 Corinthians 5:11 that there are those who call themselves saved, but the sin in their lives shows that they are not. So, in correspondence with creating thorns and thistles, a.k.a. resistance to the Holy Spirit, which, it says, "It is those that follow the Spirit of God who are sons of God," does it not also follow that a man can participate in all the things of God and still turn from them? I mean, God even entered Saul at one point, but we see what the end result of his life was.

sdowney717 · Jul 22, 2018

Crucify Christ again, is not going to happen from God's POV.
He was crucified and died one time to bear the sins of many.
If you abandon the faith where are you going to turn to gain forgiveness? There is no more sacrifice for your sin left to avail you, only a fierce expectation of judgement that destroys the enemies of God.
Christ says He is the only way to the Father, no one comes to the Father but by Him. The Old Covenant is GONE, it has passed away.

The Hebrews, to whom the book is written, had a prior way of animal blood sacrifices by works of the law, that they thought was acceptable to God so that they could live. But even before the New Covenant in Christ's blood, the OC salvation was they would live only by their faith, and not deeds of the law.

Chinchilla · Jul 22, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
No, they were not murderers.

Yahweh did not call them murderers.

The President of the United States, and so-called "Patriotic" citizens do not
call
soldiers murderers either.

And they were not called righteous , either, unless they had faith, true alive active faith as God says and they did as God said to do.

Jesus said if you hate somebody you alredy murder him

1 John 3:15
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

Matthew 5:21-22 King James Version (KJV)
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

~Cassia~ said:
It's impossible to even think that Christ's death is not enough. Yet some still do.

Yes, billions do, and have for centuries, and have been taught that in direct contradiction of Yahweh's Word (Scripture) and Plan and Salvation in Jesus.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Jesus said if you hate somebody you alredy murder him

1 John 3:15
“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

Matthew 5:21-22 King James Version (KJV)
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Read what you quoted yourself -
not "you murder him" but as written "is a murderer" - huge difference - the one who is hated , like Jesus, like all His followers, goes on in life.... and in the next life... not murdered by hate (sometimes executed as a martyr, yes, but that's not the point here),

while the hater is declared to be a murderer, even though the one hated is still going on in life ! SHEER GRACE FROM YAHWEH !
The hater is the one without Jesus Life,
the hater is the one who is already condemned because of unbelief.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Crucify Christ again, is not going to happen from God's POV.

Don't lay aside God's Word - His POV -
God says (and they say also) that they re-crucify Christ (as they do daily) ..... and for them, I think it is written, God says there remains no more sacrifice for their sin (they cannot enter heaven nor see the kingdom of God, ever).

sdowney717 · Jul 22, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Don't lay aside God's Word - His POV -
God says (and they say also) that they re-crucify Christ (as they do daily) ..... and for them, I think it is written, God says there remains no more sacrifice for their sin (they cannot enter heaven nor see the kingdom of God, ever).

Those who do this are not saved, nor were they ever His sheep.
The ones who draw back from Christ do NOT believe in Christ as they are NOT of His sheep as HE tells you.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

John 10

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Those who do this are not saved, nor were they ever His sheep.
The ones who draw back from Christ do NOT believe in Christ as they are NOT of His sheep as HE tells you.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

John 10

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I didn't say they were saved. Perhaps, miraculously, they will be delivered before they die ?
They may or may not have ever been His sheep, accordingly as Jesus said.

Natsumi Lam · Sep 24, 2018

ClementofA said:
“impossible…to renew unto repentance” which some ETers take to mean they can never be saved

1. but does Heb.6:4-6 mean it is impossible for men, or for God, to renew such a one to repentance?

2. does it imply it is impossible forever, or could it be for a limited time, e.g. for this age & the next?

Re 1. above i think of the scripture which asks, is anything too difficult for the Lord? Jesus said, With man this is impossible, but with God all is possible. So i’d suggest that a possible interpretation of the Hebrews passage in harmony with UR is that it is impossible for the man himself or other men to renew him to repentance, but not impossible for God.

Even some bible commentators who do not support UR admit the Hebrews passage is not saying it is impossible for God to save them & that it is possible for Him to do so. Just that He has chosen not to, for various reasons.

In Acts 4:8 we read of a lame man who was unable to walk. It was impossible for him to walk. The same Greek word is used for “impossible” as in Hebrews 6. While it was impossible for the man to walk or cure himself of his inability to walk, it was possible with God’s help. In verses 9-10 he was healed. In the age to come when all are resurrected by the Lord will they not also be able to walk?

If God hardens a heart so he cannot let the people of Israel go, then it is impossible for him to repent (change his mind) and let them go. But if God later allows him to let them go, then it was not impossible for him to do that forever, but only while God hardened his heart.

While God hardened his heart he was not allowed or permitted to let the people go. The Hebrews 6:4-6 passage also speaks of people doing something only “if God permit” (v.3). So might those for whom it is impossible to be renewed unto repentance be that way because God does not “permit” it? Could He at some point in the future permit them again? I don’t see anything in Heb.6:4-6 that says otherwise.

The Hebrews passage paints a contrast between those who can go on to maturity “if God permits” and those who are not being permitted, as it is presently impossible for them. Why? Because God does not presently “permit” it to such as those described in the context?

Re 2. above Heb 6 has similarities to the unpardonable sin of the 4 gospels, which is not forgiven in this age or the age to come. Both passage speak of the Spirit of the Lord & the age to come. Could this gospels’ account be what the Hebrews writer had in mind? If so, then it leaves open the possibility of their repentance & pardon in the age after the one to come, since the Scripture speaks of more than one future age.

For additional perspectives on Hebrews 6:4-6, there is the following:

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible Threatenings Explained.htm#9

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb.6:6, NASB)

[d] while

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 6 - New American Standard Bible

"That Ominous “Impossible”

"What is the plight of one who has known and experienced the lovely blessings detailed in Heb. 6:4-5, and then he defects? What is his spiritual status should he “fall away”? And “fall away” from what? From the grace that had been bestowed upon them (see Heb. 12:15; cf. Gal. 5:4).

"The answer to the question is this. “It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.” The phrase is frightening. It sounds so bleak. It is bleak! It is an “impossible” endeavor.

"The word “impossible” derives from the Greek adunatos, literally “without power.” Note the word’s use elsewhere in this letter (Heb. 6:18; 10:4; 11:6). Any attempt to weaken the term is an exercise in futility.

"But, as our original question suggested, the passage does seem to conflict with so many other biblical texts that lavishly describe the unfathomable love and mercy of our wonderful and benevolent Maker.

"How is one to reconcile this seeming difficulty?

"The key to the solution is to be found in the following phrase. The American Standard Version renders it as follows:

" “seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” "

"The ASV footnote has it: “the while they crucify....” The English Standard Version reads like this: “since they are crucifying once again....”

"The translators are attempting to give the English reader a hint as to the force of the original text. Here are some important grammatical facts.

"They keep on crucifying Jesus

"Both of the expressions “crucify” and “put him to open shame” are present tense participles. In Greek, the present tense has more to do with the type of action, rather than time (the latter being secondary). The present tense represents an action that is in progress, and generally, one that is sustained (see Wallace, 518).

"The “crucifying” and “putting to open shame,” therefore, represent on-going actions on the part of apostates.

"As long as ...

"It is also important to note that present participles normally express action that is contemporary with that of the main verb of the sentence (Wallace, 625), which, in this case is “renew.”

"In other words, “while they continue to crucify,” “as long as they are crucifying,” etc., the Son of God, they cannot be brought to repentance.

"Why is this the case? Because Christ is the motive for repentance! How could one possibly repent of falling away from the Christian faith, if he believes that the crucifixion of Jesus was a just sentence upon a false Messiah?

"As F. F. Bruce expressed it: “Those who repudiate the salvation procured by Christ will find none anywhere else” (149).

"Conclusion

"And so, it is not the case that Jewish Christians who abandon the faith cannot ever be saved. The tragic reality is this. They cannot be saved if they drift into a state of unbelief and remain that way!

"But, as Blackwelder observes, the temporal participles imply that “if persons guilty of such sin will cease it, and repent, they can be reclaimed” (104).

"While the passage contains a fearful warning for apostates, it does not suggest a state of utter despair."

REFERENCES
Blackwelder, Boyce W. 1958. Light From The Greek New Testament. Anderson, IN: Warner Press.
Bruce, F. F. 1990. The Epistle to the Hebrews — Revised Edition. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.
Hagner, Donald. 1990. New International Biblical Commentary — Hebrews. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.
Hodges, Zane. 1983. “Hebrews,” The Bible Knowledge Commentary, John Walvoord & Roy Zuck, Eds. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
Vine, W. E. 1952. The Epistle to the Hebrews. Grand Rapids: Zondervan.
Wallace, Daniel B. 1996. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

Are Apostates from the Faith beyond Repentance?

I believe that Hebrews 6: 4 -6 relates to meat-eater (Hebrews 5: 13- 14; Hebrews 6 1 - 3; Is 28: 5- 13), mature Christians who have willfully turned their back on Him and the contract of repentance.

I do not believe, according to the qualifications under Hebrews 6:4 - 6, that this applies to those who walk in the milk of the Word, "unmature" christians.

redleghunter · Sep 24, 2018

Dave G. said:
I wonder what it is about people( I include myself) who just seem to go digging for something that will prove that for themselves the promises of Jesus Christ failed. When there is so much written about justification "In Jesus" for the gentile. It's as if we don't want to accept that, but we will dig up the obscure single verse written to someone else ( the Hebrews) and apply that willingly to ourselves just to prove we are going to hell after all, as Jesus rolls his eyes yet again...

Well said. The Promises of God are secure in the blood of Christ and His resurrection.

redleghunter · Sep 24, 2018

Dave G. said:
Besides that we all can have doubt, it doesn't mean we dumped Jesus and returned fully 100% back to where we came from, be that witchcraft, or what ever your history is. Once born again the Holy Spirit is going to convict you anyway if you did try that. The real question is were you ever truly born again ? If not you never made the cut anyway. IE: He never knew you.. If you are born again you win eternally.

And the apostle John actually gives a litmus test for us to determine the wheat from the tares:

1 John 2:
18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Natsumi Lam · Sep 24, 2018

HTacianas said:
It means that it is impossible for that person to be brought to repentance. So, the plain reading -regardless of the wordsmithing by your source above- tells us that a person who falls away from the faith cannot be "saved again". Also, arguing that "the person was never really saved to begin with" doesn't hold water because the writer goes into detail when describing that "saved" person, i.e., "heavenly gift", "enlightened", etc. That is what scripture teaches. The Church teaches something else.

After the last Roman persecution, during which many, many Christians renounced their faith under torture or threat of torture, some going so far as to turn over sacred scripture to the Roman authorities to be burned, the impossibility of their being renewed once again to repentance was used by many to preclude them from repenting and returning to the Church. The Church -quite literally- set scripture aside, annulled it, to allow The Lapsed to return to the Church. And that became the tradition of the Church.

Do you prefer scripture or tradition?

Scripture is the way to go

Natsumi Lam · Sep 24, 2018

So I am wondering about your understanding and opinions:

Are we talking about mature Christians in the Lord in this verse, according to the previous verses, or all Christians?

Or are we talking about it being applicable to only the Jews who are saved?

I am a bit confused as to people's opinions.

impossible to renew unto repentance (Heb.6:3-6)

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