Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

zeke37 said:

tradition...

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2 Thess 2:15.........

Athanasias said:

2 Thess 2:15.........

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see my signature....

Ormly said:

For hundreds of years the church fathers never held her in such a postiion.

Mary is NOT a second Eve. Eve was created, Mary was born in sin, Period. So thats RCC speak to support the idea of making her to be what she isn't; to illegally venerate her.

If your RCC interpretation is bought into that would make Mary to occupy the "Holy of Holies". This she does not however and keeping in mind, the goal of the RCC is to venerate her; actually place her above Christ.

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Mr Ormly Please......The Church fathers held that Mary was the new Eve even at the end of the first century and early second century. They may not have used the term Ark of the covenant to describe her until the late 200's early 300's but what difference does that make? They also did not use the term Trinity to describe God until around the year 181 A..D. does that mean the Trinity is false? Absolutely not!

How is it illegal to venerate her or any Christian?
Mary did occupy the Holy of Holies(Christ Jesus) in her womb for 9 months. Jesus Christ is the Word of God(Jn 1:1) , the new Manna from heaven (Jn 6:48-58), who is our High priest (Heb 3:1) and he rules with a rod of iron(Rev 12:5). Mary housed him in her womb.

What did the ark of the covenant carry? The Ark carried the Ten words(word of God. the commandments) the Manna from heaven, and the Rod of Aaron a sign of priestly authority.

How does venerating Mary place he above Christ? Christ Jesus is the one who created her so how can she be above Christ? Catholics do not teach that she is. I am a Catholic theology student. Our classes never teach that. I never teach that. So how does venerating Mary place he above Christ? it was christ that venerated her int he first place by making he the new Ark and Second Eve and Sinless. We simply imitate Christ.


Mr Ormly Again you have never once dealt with the passages in Lk 1 or Rev 11-12 that I listed that describe her as Second Eve and New Ark. You need to exegete these passages and show us how they do not teach that she is the Second Eve and New Ark of the Covenant. I have already shown you how they do demonstrate that and how the early Christians saw that too.

Now is your shining moment Mr. Ormly now is your chance to show Catholics that these passages do not typologically reveal Mary as new Ark and Second eve. I am waiting I have ask you to do this several times now and you refuse. It becomes clear that all you can do is say "your wrong" or start some insults to the Catholic church and her doctrines, but you cannot exegetically back that up in the text.

So again show me why LK 1 and Rev 11-12 does not show Mary as New Ark of the covenant and Second Eve? Until you can demonstrate that the Catholic position stands strong on this dogma of the immaculate conception. I will hold you to that!

Let take alook again at why the passage do exegetically and historically are seen to reveal Mary as New ark and New eve.


Mary in the New Testament is also a fulfillment of certain types namely Eve and the Ark of the Covenant. In Genesis Eve is described as a “Women” who disobeyed God. Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate. The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil) and they choose freely to dis-obey God and eat one food from one tree that would cause death for a whole race. In Luke’s gospel the same is seen but only in reversed and redemptive way. In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel) and this one woman freely chooses to obey and accept God’s plan for her, unlike Eve. This one women would give birth to one man -Jesus Christ- who would die for all on a tree and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion). Mary is truly the fulfillment of Eve as Jesus is of Adam. Catholic Scripture scholar Dr. Scott Hahn demonstrates that Mary is called by the title “woman” by Jesus himself and in Rev 12:1-17 one discovers that the “woman” who is described as a fulfillment of Eve is the Mother of God herself.
The Fathers of the Church saw Mary as the fulfillment of Eve too. St. Justin Martyr in 155 A.D. made direct comparisons to Mary and Eve on a redemptive level. St. Ireneuas spoke of Mary as a fulfillment of Eve stating that in Luke’s Gospel Mary loosed the knot of sin that Eve bound the world in. Even as early as the late 1st century the writings of Mathetes spoke of a new incorrupt Eve who was a Virgin.


The typology of Mary as New Eve is important to the Immaculate Conception because it shows implicit evidence for the doctrine. Remembering that all New Testament fulfillments are far greater and more powerful than their Old Testament types one can only conclude that Mary is immaculately conceived. Eve and Adam were created without sin; Jesus and Mary fulfill their types. Just as the new Adam, Jesus is sinless, so too the new Eve, Mary. If Mary was not conceived sinless she would be a inferior type to Eve. This is why many fathers of the church, such as St. Augustine in his work “Nature and Grace” , freely and confidently proclaimed Mary to be sinless.



Another type Mary fulfills is the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant contained three things: the Manna from heaven, the rod of Aaron (a sign of high priestly Authority), and the ten words (or Ten Commandments) of God. Mary carried in her womb the fulfillment of all three of those things. Jesus Christ is the new manna from heaven and is the new covenant high priest who rules the new kingdom (the church with a rod of iron). Like the ten words carried in the Ark, Jesus is the Word of God incarnate himself. The United States Catholic Bishops show how St. Luke presented Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant in parallels in their pastoral letter. For example, if one compares 2 Sam 6 with Luke 1 they will find Mary being presented as the new Ark. In 2 Sam 6:2 David arose and went to Judah; in Luke 1:39 Mary arose and went to Judah. In 2 Sam 6:9 David ask “How can the ark of the Lord come to Me”. In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth uses almost identical language saying “ why is this granted me that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.” In 2 Sam 6:11 the Ark remained for three months. In Lk 1:56 Mary stays three months with Elizabeth. In 2 Sam 6:12 David rejoices; in Lk 1:47 Mary’s spirit rejoices. In 2 Sam 6:16 there is leaping and dancing. In Lk 1:41 the babe leaps in Elizabeth's womb. Also interesting to note is the Ark of the Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit of God. Luke used similar language that the Septuagint (Greek translations of the Old Testament) use in Exodus describing the Ark being overshadowed to describe Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Clearly St. Luke sees Mary as typologically the fulfillment of the Ark.

Scripture Scholar Dr. Scott Hahn also shows how gospel writer John reveals Mary as the New Ark in the Book of Revelation(Rev 11:19). The ark of God’s heavenly covenant is revealed, and in the very next verse(Rev 12:1) the woman, Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, appears. Dr. Hahn reminds readers that when Scripture was written there were no chapters and verses, and when the Book of Revelation is read in its immediate and typological context the Ark is revealed as Mary.


Fathers of the Church like St. Hippolytus, St. Jerome, and St. Ambrose had openly proclaimed Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant and many of the fathers of the church also spoke of her being sinless. The earliest hymns written in praise of Mary spoke of Mary as “with-out stain or blemish” and also spoke of her as “Ark Gilded by the Holy Ghost”. If Mary is truly a fulfillment of the Ark then her Immaculate Conception makes sense. What the old ark contained could not be touched by sin. One had to be sanctified from sin just to carry the ark due to its precious cargo(1 Chron 15:12-14). Uzzuh was himself killed because he was a sinful man who touched the ark (2Sam 6:6-8). If the old covenant ark could not be touched by sin because of what it carried, how much more would the new covenant fulfillment of the ark (Mary) not be touched by sin for what she carried. For the wisdom of God will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin(Wis 1:4), and Jesus Christ is wisdom personified(1 Cor 1:24). Hence Mary’s Immaculate Conception is biblically implicit.

Ormly said:

What we have here is a dicussion about the immaculate mis-conception.

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Mr Ormly, Insults are not very becoming of you. I had higher aspirations for a better dialog.

mont974x4 said:

see my signature....

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Why I agree with this verse completly! Good quote! But what does that have to do with the price of eggs or my Quote 2 Thess 2:15?

I don't understand why protestants fear the Immaculate Conception so much, other than for the fact that Catholics believe it.

SwissGuard said:

I don't understand why protestants fear the Immaculate Conception so much, other than for the fact that Catholics believe it.

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SG it's a pretty simple answer.
It's not in scripture and scripture speaks specifically of the ONE who was sinless and NOW is at the right hand of God.

SwissGuard said:

I don't understand why protestants fear the Immaculate Conception so much, other than for the fact that Catholics believe it.

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I agree. ther are many misconceptions they innocently hold about us so they end up believing them and fearing the dogma when it is completely biblical and traditionally apostolic in nature. there is nothing we can really do about it through . we can educate our Catholics on why we beleive it from scripture and Tradition and we can try to educate them if they will listen with a open mind and heart and put aside their prejudices and pride they were taught by their ministers.

But the ones that do that(Listen open heartedly) usually end up becoming or returning to the Catholic faith ie..Dr Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Marcus Grodi, James Akin, Robert Sungesis etc. I teach , pray and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I never put anything past the power of the Holy spirit when it comes to conversion and reversion. I have seen many revert and convert.

SwissGuard said:

I don't understand why protestants fear the Immaculate Conception so much, other than for the fact that Catholics believe it.

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I don't fear it. You all are the ones in trouble by embracing it.

simonthezealot said:

SG it's a pretty simple answer.
It's not in scripture and scripture speaks specifically of the ONE who was sinless and NOW is at the right hand of God.

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Well, there's lots of things you believe that are not in scripture. By that kind of logic, I would be forced to say that Jesus never went to the bathroom, because it ain't in scripture. He just blew up like a baloon.

Ormly said:

I don't fear it. You all are the ones in trouble by embracing it.

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What kind of trouble? It is true.

simonthezealot said:

SG it's a pretty simple answer.
It's not in scripture and scripture speaks specifically of the ONE who was sinless and NOW is at the right hand of God.

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Yes we understand that you believe that but in our Catholic understanding and the early Churches her immaculate conception is in scripture implicitly. So we dissagree with you!


How you ask? Well here goes again!

Mary in the New Testament is also a fulfillment of certain types namely Eve and the Ark of the Covenant. In Genesis Eve is described as a “Women” who disobeyed God. Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate. The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil) and they choose freely to dis-obey God and eat one food from one tree that would cause death for a whole race. In Luke’s gospel the same is seen but only in reversed and redemptive way. In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel) and this one woman freely chooses to obey and ac-cept God’s plan for her, unlike Eve. This one women would give birth to one man -Jesus Christ- who would die for all on a tree and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion). Mary is truly the fulfillment of Eve as Jesus is of Adam. Catholic Scripture scholar Dr. Scott Hahn demonstrates that Mary is called by the title “woman” by Jesus himself and in Rev 12:1-17 one discovers that the “woman” who is described as a ful-fillment of Eve is the Mother of God herself.
The Fathers of the Church saw Mary as the fulfillment of Eve too. St. Justin Martyr in 155 A.D. made direct comparisons to Mary and Eve on a redemptive level. St. Ireneuas spoke of Mary as a fulfillment of Eve stating that in Luke’s Gospel Mary loosed the knot of sin that Eve bound the world in. Even as early as the late 1st century the writings of Mathetes spoke of a new incorrupt Eve who was a Virgin.


The typology of Mary as New Eve is important to the Immaculate Conception because it shows implicit evidence for the doctrine. Remembering that all New Testament fulfillments are far greater and more powerful than their Old Testament types one can only conclude that Mary is immaculately conceived. Eve and Adam were created without sin; Jesus and Mary fulfill their types. Just as the new Adam, Jesus is sinless, so too the new Eve, Mary. If Mary was not con-ceived sinless she would be a inferior type to Eve. This is why many fathers of the church, such as St. Augustine in his work “Nature and Grace” , freely and confidently proclaimed Mary to be sinless.



Another type Mary fulfills is the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant contained three things: the Manna from heaven, the rod of Aaron (a sign of high priestly Authority), and the ten words (or Ten Commandments) of God. Mary carried in her womb the fulfillment of all three of those things. Jesus Christ is the new manna from heaven and is the new covenant high priest who rules the new kingdom (the church with a rod of iron). Like the ten words carried in the Ark, Jesus is the Word of God incarnate himself. The United States Catholic Bishops show how St. Luke presented Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant in parallels in their pastoral letter. For example, if one compares 2 Sam 6 with Luke 1 they will find Mary being presented as the new Ark. In 2 Sam 6:2 David arose and went to Judah; in Luke 1:39 Mary arose and went to Judah. In 2 Sam 6:9 David ask “How can the ark of the Lord come to Me”. In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth uses almost identical language saying “ why is this granted me that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.” In 2 Sam 6:11 the Ark remained for three months. In Lk 1:56 Mary stays three months with Elizabeth. In 2 Sam 6:12 David rejoices; in Lk 1:47 Mary’s spirit rejoices. In 2 Sam 6:16 there is leaping and dancing. In Lk 1:41 the babe leaps in Elizabeth's womb. Also interesting to note is the Ark of the Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit of God. Luke used similar language that the Septuagint (Greek translations of the Old Testament) use in Exodus describing the Ark being overshadowed to describe Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Clearly St. Luke sees Mary as typologically the fulfillment of the Ark.

Scripture Scholar Dr. Scott Hahn also shows how gospel writer John reveals Mary as the New Ark in the Book of Revelation(Rev 11:19). The ark of God’s heavenly covenant is revealed, and in the very next verse(Rev 12:1) the woman, Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, appears. Dr. Hahn reminds readers that when Scripture was written there were no chapters and verses, and when the Book of Revelation is read in its immediate and typological context the Ark is revealed as Mary.


Fathers of the Church like St. Hippolytus, St. Jerome, and St. Ambrose had openly proclaimed Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant and many of the fathers of the church also spoke of her being sinless. The earliest hymns written in praise of Mary spoke of Mary as “with-out stain or blemish” and also spoke of her as “Ark Gilded by the Holy Ghost”. If Mary is truly a fulfillment of the Ark then her Immaculate Conception makes sense. What the old ark contained could not be touched by sin. One had to be sanctified from sin just to carry the ark due to its precious cargo(1 Chron 15:12-14). Uzzuh was himself killed because he was a sinful man who touched the ark (2Sam 6:6-8). If the old covenant ark could not be touched by sin because of what it carried, how much more would the new covenant fulfillment of the ark (Mary) not be touched by sin for what she carried. For the wisdom of God will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin(Wis 1:4), and Jesus Christ is wisdom personified(1 Cor 1:24). Hence Mary’s Immaculate Conception is biblically implicit.

SwissGuard said:

What kind of trouble? It is true.

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If you haven't figured out by now. Mr Ormly is all talk. He loves to mock our faith and make fun of it. But when I ask him over 3 times to show me why Mary is not the new Ark or Second Eve in LK 1 or Rev 11-12 he refused to do it. He simply likes to say we are wrong but he never shows us how. I am almost sick of waisting my time with him on this subject because of his refusal to show me how the RC Church is wrong about its typologies in LK and Rev.

Just want to bring a few things to light here (I love my Bible) And I am a "protesting Catholic"

Catechism:

#493 “By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.”

#966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin…”

Bible

Romans 3:23 All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest [Jesus] became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

Catechism

#491 “…The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

I John 3:5 And ye know that he [Jesus] was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin

Bible

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest [Jesus] which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Mary’s position is seen also in these scriptures. First, Mary acknowledged herself to be a saved sinner. “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour....’” (Luke 1:46-47). Then both Joseph and Mary offered a sin offering according to the law of God. [Joseph and Mary came to Jerusalem] “to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” (Luke 2:24). If Mary was without sin, there would have been no need to offer up a pair of birds as a sacrifice to the Lord.

We can all thank the Lord that Mary was and is truly “blessed among women”. She was not blessed as equal to the Lord Jesus Christ. For the Word of God proclaims, “I am the Lord; that I my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8)

I thank God for Mary, but immaculate? She needed a saviour just like you and me and she accepted Christ as hers. There were times when even she thought "he's beside himself". She had doubts. She was human.

nice post nodoubt....

NoDoubt said:

Just want to bring a few things to light here (I love my Bible) And I am a "protesting Catholic"

Catechism:

#493 “By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.”

#966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin…”

Bible

Romans 3:23 All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest [Jesus] became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

Catechism

#491 “…The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

I John 3:5 And ye know that he [Jesus] was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin

Bible

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest [Jesus] which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Mary’s position is seen also in these scriptures. First, Mary acknowledged herself to be a saved sinner. “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour....’” (Luke 1:46-47). Then both Joseph and Mary offered a sin offering according to the law of God. [Joseph and Mary came to Jerusalem] “to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” (Luke 2:24). If Mary was without sin, there would have been no need to offer up a pair of birds as a sacrifice to the Lord.

We can all thank the Lord that Mary was and is truly “blessed among women”. She was not blessed as equal to the Lord Jesus Christ. For the Word of God proclaims, “I am the Lord; that I my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8)

I thank God for Mary, but immaculate? She needed a saviour just like you and me and she accepted Christ as hers. There were times when even she thought "he's beside himself". She had doubts. She was human.

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Athanasias said:

If you haven't figured out by now. Mr Ormly is all talk. He loves to mock our faith and make fun of it. But when I ask him over 3 times to show me why Mary is not the new Ark or Second Eve in LK 1 or Rev 11-12 he refused to do it. He simply likes to say we are wrong but he never shows us how. I am almost sick of waisting my time with him on this subject because of his refusal to show me how the RC Church is wrong about its typologies in LK and Rev.

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I haven't refused to do it. I just don't find where she should be thought of as such. It ain't there. It is an RCC concoction. How many times must it be repeated to you; how else can you be told???

SwissGuard said:

Well, there's lots of things you believe that are not in scripture. By that kind of logic, I would be forced to say that Jesus never went to the bathroom, because it ain't in scripture. He just blew up like a baloon.

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What a ridiculous analogy, that is unless your struggling to understand that Christ was indeed a 100% man as well as 100% God.

Romans says "all have sinned" and elsewhere Holy scripture says Christ was "the sinless one" how much more of a road map do you need?

Or do you believe scripture contradicts itself?

NoDoubt said:

Just want to bring a few things to light here (I love my Bible) And I am a "protesting Catholic"

Catechism:

#493 “By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.”

#966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin…”

Bible

Romans 3:23 All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest [Jesus] became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

Catechism

#491 “…The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

I John 3:5 And ye know that he [Jesus] was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin

Bible

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest [Jesus] which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Mary’s position is seen also in these scriptures. First, Mary acknowledged herself to be a saved sinner. “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour....’” (Luke 1:46-47). Then both Joseph and Mary offered a sin offering according to the law of God. [Joseph and Mary came to Jerusalem] “to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” (Luke 2:24). If Mary was without sin, there would have been no need to offer up a pair of birds as a sacrifice to the Lord.

We can all thank the Lord that Mary was and is truly “blessed among women”. She was not blessed as equal to the Lord Jesus Christ. For the Word of God proclaims, “I am the Lord; that I my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8)

I thank God for Mary, but immaculate? She needed a saviour just like you and me and she accepted Christ as hers. There were times when even she thought "he's beside himself". She had doubts. She was human.

Click to expand...

Some Protestants would argue that Mary could not be sinless because she proclaimed that she herself had a savior. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary did have a savior, Jesus Christ, but there are two ways to be saved. One can be saved by being pulled out of the mud or one can be saved by being prevented from falling in the mud. Mary’s salvation was given by Christ at her conception, anticipation for what all Christians hope for at the second coming. An-other common objection that non-Catholics raise is Romans 3:23 which says “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. The context of St. Paul’s writings explains how this mes-sage does not pertain to Mary. Paul, when he used the word “all”, was not describing every sin-gle person but rather he was using a general meaning. One can tell this by the context. Paul was speaking of personal sin and arguing that just because one was a Jew does not give him special claim to salvation. All have fallen short, both Jews and Gentiles. If St. Paul were speaking of every single human being that was born he would have to include infants, the mentally handi-capped, and Jesus, all of whom cannot sin. They are exceptions. Mary is also an exception be-cause of her roles as the Ark of the Covenant and new Eve.

Athanasias said:

Some Protestants would argue that Mary could not be sinless because she proclaimed that she herself had a savior. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary did have a savior, Jesus Christ, but there are two ways to be saved. One can be saved by being pulled out of the mud or one can be saved by being prevented from falling in the mud. Mary’s salvation was given by Christ at her conception, anticipation for what all Christians hope for at the second coming. An-other common objection that non-Catholics raise is Romans 3:23 which says “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. The context of St. Paul’s writings explains how this mes-sage does not pertain to Mary. Paul, when he used the word “all”, was not describing every sin-gle person but rather he was using a general meaning. One can tell this by the context. Paul was speaking of personal sin and arguing that just because one was a Jew does not give him special claim to salvation. All have fallen short, both Jews and Gentiles. If St. Paul were speaking of every single human being that was born he would have to include infants, the mentally handi-capped, and Jesus, all of whom cannot sin. They are exceptions. Mary is also an exception be-cause of her roles as the Ark of the Covenant and new Eve.

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She was from the loins of Adam. There is no getting around that fact of her life. The Blood of Jesus Christ was necessary to remove from all mankind the stain left by Adam's transgression; Jesus had to die before that could happen. Unless you can point to some place in the Bible [even your Bible] where Mary somehow circumvented that requirement, I am afraid you are all wet.