Images

Rescued One · Apr 17, 2013

Heidelberg Confession

Question 96. What does God require in the second commandment?
Answer: That we in no wise represent God by images, (a) nor worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his word. (b)

Question 97. Are images then not at all to be made?
Answer: God neither can, nor may be represented by any means: (a) but as to creatures; though they may be represented, yet God forbids to make, or have any resemblance of them, either in order to worship them or to serve God by them. (b)

Question 98. But may not images be tolerated in the churches, as books to the laity?
Answer: No: for we must not pretend to be wiser than God, who will have his people taught, not by dumb images, (a) but by the lively preaching of his word. (b)

Does this mean that we shouldn't have a painting of Christ in our homes?

Should our children have illustrated Bible story books?

twin1954 · Apr 18, 2013

Phoebe Ann said:
Heidelberg Confession

Question 96. What does God require in the second commandment?
Answer: That we in no wise represent God by images, (a) nor worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his word. (b)

Question 97. Are images then not at all to be made?
Answer: God neither can, nor may be represented by any means: (a) but as to creatures; though they may be represented, yet God forbids to make, or have any resemblance of them, either in order to worship them or to serve God by them. (b)

Question 98. But may not images be tolerated in the churches, as books to the laity?
Answer: No: for we must not pretend to be wiser than God, who will have his people taught, not by dumb images, (a) but by the lively preaching of his word. (b)

Does this mean that we shouldn't have a painting of Christ in our homes?

Should our children have illustrated Bible story books?

The so-called pictures and paintings of Jesus has is just theimaginary figment of someone's imagination. Jesus was a Jew not a longhaired white European. It is prohibited to use such things in worship. I honestly wish that they all would be burned along with crosses and other the other nonsense that is idolotry.

You can certainly have illustrated lessons for children without the idolotry. Here is a link to outstanding childrens Bible lessons:

Truth For Children: Free and Complete Sunday School Lessons ages Pre-school thru Elementary

Rescued One · Apr 18, 2013

twin1954 said:
The so-called pictures and paintings of Jesus has is just theimaginary figment of someone's imagination. Jesus was a Jew not a longhaired white European. It is prohibited to use such things in worship. I honestly wish that they all would be burned along with crosses and other the other nonsense that is idolotry.

You can certainly have illustrated lessons for children without the idolotry. Here is a link to outstanding childrens Bible lessons:

Truth For Children: Free and Complete Sunday School Lessons ages Pre-school thru Elementary

Those lessons are from a Wesleyan(Arminian) publishing house(From BibleStoryCard Learning System™ Coloring Book © 1996 Wesleyan Publishing House). Wesleyans have paintings of Jesus in their foyer sometimes. I asked my question in Semper Reformanda because I want the Calvinist/Reformed interpretation of the Heidelberg Confession. But thanks anyway.

crimsonleaf · Apr 18, 2013

My church has neither cross nor images of any kind. So I'm guessing that their interpretation is strict.

I admit to cringing whenever I see images of Christ anywhere, but most of all in a church. However, I'm probably alone in the wearing of a cross, which I do because it ignites interest from others who then ask if I'm Christian. This leads to the odd fruitful discussion.

But I don't hold the cross whilst praying, or use it in worship in any sense.

Does that help?

twin1954 · Apr 18, 2013

Phoebe Ann said:
Those lessons are from a Wesleyan(Arminian) publishing house(From BibleStoryCard Learning System Coloring Book © 1996 Wesleyan Publishing House). Wesleyans have paintings of Jesus in their foyer sometimes. I asked my question in Semper Reformanda because I want the Calvinist/Reformed interpretation of the Heidelberg Confession. But thanks anyway.

You didn't try the link did you? Those lessons are done by a very close friend of mine and are anything but Arminian or Wesleyan I can assure you.

Rescued One · Apr 18, 2013

twin1954 said:
You didn't try the link did you? Those lessons are done by a very close friend of mine and are anything but Arminian or Wesleyan I can assure you.

Had I not tried the link, I wouldn't have known that the illustration was from a Wesleyan publishing house! I see several authors at that sight and I'm not familiar with any of them. Some of the links aren't working for me.

I wanted to look at this one:

http://truthforchildren.net/images/pdf/Rom8_TheSovereigntyofGod.pdf

Rescued One · Apr 18, 2013

crimsonleaf said:
My church has neither cross nor images of any kind. So I'm guessing that their interpretation is strict.

I admit to cringing whenever I see images of Christ anywhere, but most of all in a church. However, I'm probably alone in the wearing of a cross, which I do because it ignites interest from others who then ask if I'm Christian. This leads to the odd fruitful discussion.

But I don't hold the cross whilst praying, or use it in worship in any sense.

Does that help?

I have an old print of Christ by Heinrich Hofmann in my living room. I like it because I've been familiar with it since childhood.

twin1954 · Apr 18, 2013

Phoebe Ann said:
Had I not tried the link, I wouldn't have known that the illustration was from a Wesleyan publishing house! I see several authors at that sight and I'm not familiar with any of them. Some of the links aren't working for me.

I wanted to look at this one:

http://truthforchildren.net/images/pdf/Rom8_TheSovereigntyofGod.pdf

That is the same site I linked you to. I don't know how you got to a Wesleyan site from it. The fellow who does both freegrace radio and grace ebooks daughter does the lessons and there are no images of Jesus or anything in them that is idolotry. They point you to Christ Jesus the Lord but only in the same way a sermon would. I believe that she does both the stories and the illustrations. She started doing them for her own children because there was nothing she could find that didn't have illustrations of Jesus in them.

crimsonleaf · Apr 18, 2013

Phoebe Ann said:
I have an old print of Christ by Heinrich Hofmann in my living room. I like it because I've been familiar with it since childhood.

No, you have an old print of what Hoffman thinks Christ looked like.

And that's the point; we all have our own image of Christ, and it's mostly coloured by other people's interpretations.

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 18, 2013

Phoebe Ann said:
Heidelberg Confession

Question 96. What does God require in the second commandment?
Answer: That we in no wise represent God by images, (a) nor worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his word. (b)

Question 97. Are images then not at all to be made?
Answer: God neither can, nor may be represented by any means: (a) but as to creatures; though they may be represented, yet God forbids to make, or have any resemblance of them, either in order to worship them or to serve God by them. (b)

Question 98. But may not images be tolerated in the churches, as books to the laity?
Answer: No: for we must not pretend to be wiser than God, who will have his people taught, not by dumb images, (a) but by the lively preaching of his word. (b)

Does this mean that we shouldn't have a painting of Christ in our homes?

Should our children have illustrated Bible story books?

The Amish are really strict with the 2nd Commandment, as they forbid having photographs taken of them, which means owning no photo albums of family, etc.

I've always had an appreciation for art, all throughout school, and am somewhat of an artist, though I have not used the talent in a long time. I think the saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" can certainly hold true. You can do things with art, which is difficult to do with just words.

Sounds like by the standards above, even Church plays, floats, etc. would be forbidden, including films like Mel Gibson's "The Passion of Christ". I watched "The Passion", and it was an extremely difficult film for me to watch, and although I disagree with some of the elements/interpretation in it, one thing that it did, is gave me a greater sense of the suffering Christ went through for us, in a way that words, could not quite convey.

The way I have always interpreted the 2nd Commandment, is simply the prohibition/forbidding of worshiping images..anywhere at any time.

I appreciate Twin's comment "Jesus was a Jew not a long-haired white European." I think in more recent years Christian filmmakers have taken that criticism more to heart, seeking to reenact a more accurate portrayal of Jewish people in Biblical times. I've always been annoyed by the pale skinned blue eyed portrayals of Jesus. Hello peoples, Jews have olive skin and dark eyes. I disagree with portraying him in any other way, than a historically accurate one. So it takes away from my appreciation, seeing the pale skinned Jesus, as portrayed in the old European paintings by world famous artists.

crimsonleaf · Apr 18, 2013

The artwork of the Jehovah's Witnesses is particularly lacking in accuracy, as is Mormon art.

deetwang · Apr 18, 2013

I attend an old historic community church, non denominational. The pastor teaches and preaches sound doctrine. There is a large painting of a shepherd with a sheep up front behind the altar, which concerned me at one time.

I inquired about it and found that it was painted right onto the wall, then framed around, back in 1908, and is part of the wall! Also that being a historic building we are not allowed to change the pews (hard hundred year old wood) or anything that was part of the original church, so we just see it as a painting of a shepherd.

The artist was trying to portray the spiritual and biblical view of Jesus as the Good Shepherd, who cares for His sheep. I don't see anything wrong with that, no one prays in front of it, kneels in front of it, or even talks about it, it's like "just there" and we can't remove it. So I am fine with it.

I also wanted to mention that Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the greatest preacher of the 19th century, developed "picture books" to use when trying to explain the gospel in other countries to illiterate people, who could not read or write. It was very successful!

I think the 2nd Commandment means that we are not to place special "value" on objects, nor look to the object instead of God, nor think of it as an "actual portrayal" of what Jesus looks like....etc.

crimsonleaf · Apr 18, 2013

deetwang said:
I attend an old historic community church, non denominational. The pastor teaches and preaches sound doctrine. There is a large painting of a shepherd with a sheep up front behind the altar, which concerned me at one time.

I inquired about it and found that it was painted right onto the wall, then framed around, back in 1908, and is part of the wall! Also that being a historic building we are not allowed to change the pews (hard hundred year old wood) or anything that was part of the original church, so we just see it as a painting of a shepherd.

The artist was trying to portray the spiritual and biblical view of Jesus as the Good Shepherd, who cares for His sheep. I don't see anything wrong with that, no one prays in front of it, kneels in front of it, or even talks about it, it's like "just there" and we can't remove it. So I am fine with it.

I also wanted to mention that Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the greatest preacher of the 19th century, developed "picture books" to use when trying to explain the gospel in other countries to illiterate people, who could not read or write. It was very successful!

I think the 2nd Commandment means that we are not to place special "value" on objects, nor look to the object instead of God, nor think of it as an "actual portrayal" of what Jesus looks like....etc.

I'd agree with all of that.

JM · Apr 18, 2013

John Gill is right,

"Though all pictures, paintings, and sculptures, are not forbidden hereby, only such as are made for, and used in, divine worship; but not which are for ornament, or for the use of history; and to perpetuate to posterity the memory of men, and their actions"

We should avoid using images, icons, crucifixes, crosses, etc. in worship.

Rescued One · Apr 18, 2013

crimsonleaf said:
The artwork of the Jehovah's Witnesses is particularly lacking in accuracy, as is Mormon art.

Tell me about the Mormon art. Do you think all of Liz Lemon Swindle's art is highly inaccurate? JFYI, I wouldn't buy LDS art anyway.

But I see that I'm not getting an answer to my OP from CRNA, CRC, RCA or any other Reformed Churches.

Rescued One · Apr 18, 2013

twin1954 said:
That is the same site I linked you to. I don't know how you got to a Wesleyan site from it. The fellow who does both freegrace radio and grace ebooks daughter does the lessons and there are no images of Jesus or anything in them that is idolotry. They point you to Christ Jesus the Lord but only in the same way a sermon would. I believe that she does both the stories and the illustrations. She started doing them for her own children because there was nothing she could find that didn't have illustrations of Jesus in them.

I went to the site you linked. I wanted to look at the lesson and read it, but the link I chose didn't work. The illustration that I saw was from a Weslyan Publishing Company as I said. The illustration I saw looked like Jesus. Which denominations consider it idolatry? OPC is probably one. Are there others. I don't want to debate. I want to be informed.

JM · Apr 18, 2013

Reformed Christians have historically considered images of Christ as breaking the second commandment.

Rescued One · Apr 18, 2013

JM said:
Reformed Christians have historically considered images of Christ as breaking the second commandment.

OOPS! I hope mine doesn't ... or the pastor shouldn't visit me. But the pastor's wife wears a cross sometimes. Does that mean they're more liberal?

JM · Apr 19, 2013

Not necessarily, they might just disagree with the Reformed exegesis of the second commandment and the regulative principle of worship.

The Regulative Principle Of Worship Explained By Bob Gonzales & Sam Waldron | The Confessing Baptist

deetwang · Apr 19, 2013

Thanks JM, that was informative. I didn't realize this thread was for Reformed only. My church is non denominational, it's just a Christian church in a very old church house that has this painting, with very little facial detail of a shepherd, rather than supposing it to represent Christ, I think it represents the biblical type of Jesus as portrayed in Psalm 23 "the Lord is my Shepherd".

I believe in the sovereignty of God, and also believe there is an element of human responsibility. Salvation is "all of God", no one can be saved except the Father draw him, but that we have to respond to the call. Just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean I don't believe both things, because both things are clearly in the Bible.
The Bible makes it clear that was cannot understand how God thinks.
Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." and of course, the double witness:
Romans 11:33 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

So by faith I believe the Bible regardless of whether I understand how these two doctrines can co exist.

Images

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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Confessional Free Catholic

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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