I'm improper, gravely deficient, and defective

CaDan · May 9, 2006

Oh, and if we're gonna talk about Dominus Iesus, here's a link:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

lionroar0 · May 9, 2006

Lot's of fluff no substance.

1. http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john10.htm
This is a link to John Chapter10 with footnotes.

"

Churches such as the Church of England, where the apostolic succession of bishops from the time of St. Peter is disputed by Rome, and churches without bishops, are not considered 'proper' churches." They suffer from "defects." Religions other than Christianity are considered to be "gravely deficient." Their rituals can constitute "an obstacle to salvation" for their followers. 1,2

Click to expand...

This is nothing new. The Church has been saying this since the 1st century. It's called Apostolic succesion.

I would also like to see the source for this information.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faithsaid that the document was infallible since it was "explicitly approved and confirmed by the pope." The pope had said that it was "his will that what it contains be believed by all the church." 6[/FONT]

[/FONT]

There have also been other documents explicitly approved and confirmed by the Pope this does not make them infallable.

Again I would like to see the source for this information. There has only been two infallable decrees and they are regarding Mary.
I
3 Misinformed about purgatory.

Since the Church teaches that a very lengthy interval in Purgatory or an eternity in Hell awaits the unsaved, the adverse consequences of an individual following another religion (or a Christian denomination other than the RCC) are severe -- perhaps infinite infinite in nature.

Click to expand...

Purgatory is for the saved not for the unsaved.
2. [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The Church of Christ is the instrument by which all humans are saved.[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Salvation is accessible to those who are not members of the "Church" -- (i.e. not Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians). It comes through grace which originates with Christ and "enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation."[/FONT]
3. [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Members of other religions are "gravely deficient" relative to members of the Church of Christ who already have "the fullness of the means of salvation." [/FONT]

This is talking about Catholicism in relation to other religions not in relation to other Christian traditions.

It is just saying that we know were the Grace of Christ is. We do not know where it isn't.

So, all you have to do to be saved is belong to the Catholic church.

nonsequitor. The facts presented do not lead to this conclusion.

John 10:16

I have other sheep 7 that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Amen

Jesus has sheep everywhere. I notice He does not call them gravely deficient, defective, or improper.

Then what would you call non-christians? Would you say that they are saved?

My question to Catholics.........how do you square it? Doesn't it make you just a wee bit hesitant to accept and further such decrees?

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Peace

thereselittleflower · May 9, 2006

Redwolf said:
Start a thread on that subject, and I'll tell you.

Go ahead and tell us here.

Peace

thereselittleflower · May 9, 2006

Redwolf said:
According to the Catholic church.

My personal relationship with Christ notwithstanding, nor His assurance that He is my Saviour if I avail myself of His sacrifice and atonement for my sins, the church says I'm no good.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john10.htm
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The current views of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) concerning other Christian denominations and other religions are explained in a Vatican declaration Dominus Iesus. According to the Times News Service, the statement implies that "Churches such as the Church of England, where the apostolic succession of bishops from the time of St. Peter is disputed by Rome, and churches without bishops, are not considered 'proper' churches." They suffer from "defects." [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Religions other than Christianity are considered to be "gravely deficient." Their rituals can constitute "an obstacle to salvation" for their followers. 1,2 [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faithsaid that the document was infallible since it was "explicitly approved and confirmed by the pope." The pope had said that it was "his will that what it contains be believed by all the church." 6[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Since the Church teaches that a very lengthy interval in Purgatory or an eternity in Hell awaits the unsaved, the adverse consequences of an individual following another religion (or a Christian denomination other than the RCC) are severe -- perhaps infinite infinite in nature.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Cardinal Ratzinger describes the status of non-Christian religions:
[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The Church of Christ is the instrument by which all humans are saved.[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Salvation is accessible to those who are not members of the "Church" -- (i.e. not Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians). It comes through grace which originates with Christ and "enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation."[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The prayers and rituals of other religions may help or hinder their believers. Some practices may prepare their membership to absorb the Gospel. However, those rituals which "depend on superstitions or other errors... constitute an obstacle to salvation."[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Members of other religions are "gravely deficient" relative to members of the Church of Christ who already have "the fullness of the means of salvation." [/FONT]

So, all you have to do to be saved is belong to the Catholic church.

John 10:16
I have other sheep 7 that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Jesus has sheep everywhere. I notice He does not call them gravely deficient, defective, or improper.

My question to Catholics.........how do you square it? Doesn't it make you just a wee bit hesitant to accept and further such decrees?

Why should it? Truth is truth .. why should I be hesitant at all about accepting truth?

Peace

thereselittleflower · May 9, 2006

Redwolf said:
I believe the Catholic church has no right to condemn me and my decision not to be a Catholic. If this is bashing the Catholic church, then I'd like to know what being called deficient, defective, and improper are.
Snooky yookums love notes?

Are you telling us that the Catholic Church doesn't have the right to speak the truth?

Just because you don't think it is the truth doesn't make it not the truth.

Just because you find it offensive, doesn't make it any less true.

Peace

thereselittleflower · May 9, 2006

woobadooba said:
But does it really suggest that you are deficient?

Here is what it says...

"Religions other than Christianity are considered to be "gravely deficient."

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"Members of other religions are "gravely deficient" relative to members of the Church of Christ who already have "the fullness of the means of salvation."[/FONT]

Thank you woobadooba

Yes, if he would bother to read what he quoted:

Cardinal Ratzinger describes the status of non-Christian religions:

Peace

thereselittleflower · May 9, 2006

Redwolf said:
Church of Christ cleverly disguises RCC. I'm a member of a religion other than RCC and, therefore, gravely deficient.
64. If the Catholic Church is to lead all men to eternal salvation, and has, for that purpose, received from Christ her doctrine, her means of grace, and her powers, what, for his part, is every one obliged to do?
Every one is obliged, under pain of eternal damnation, to become a member of the Catholic Church, to believe her doctrine, to use her means of grace, and to submit to her authority.

Source: Deharbe's Catechism, translated by Rev. John Fander, published by Schwartz, Kirwin & Fauss, 53 Park Place, New York, Sixth American Edition, Copyright 1912, 1919, 1924, page 148.

Please stop putting words in the mouths of our cardinals and popes.

Please look at the heading of what you quoted . . it is in my post above nice and big so you won't miss it.

Now please stop these baseless accusations and falsehoods.

Peace

thereselittleflower · May 10, 2006

mesue said:
Then I shall be as you, brother, gravely deficient, defective, or improper to the glory of God.

Are you a non-Chrsitian?

Then why would you think that you are included if you are a Christian?

Did you bother to look at the heading?

Peace

thereselittleflower · May 10, 2006

woobadooba said:
Yes, you do have a valid point here.

Actually, no, he doesn't. The words he tried to use are from a Catechism and apply to Catholics and have nothing to do with the quote in his OP, which has only to do with NON-CHRSITIAN religions .. .

So it is totally irrelevant to his OP.

Peace

Redwolf · May 10, 2006

thereselittleflower said:
Why should it? Truth is truth .. why should I be hesitant at all about accepting truth?

Peace

You may do whatever makes your little heart happy, but don't be surprised if I don't like to be called names. You don't like it, do you? Your church has no say in my decisions, and I feel thouroughly bashed being called deficient, etc. If I were to call you deficient, I'd have a warning from the mod lickety-split and probably get excommunicated from this forum. I see profound inequity here.
And then you have the nerve to be surprised and act hurt if we, the Protestants, object to your doctrines, whether they be church or political.
You say we hate you! It isn't love I feel from you.
And it is most certainly not warm and inviting.

Redwolf · May 10, 2006

Jipsah said:
Then you're obviously wrong, because they've done it and haven't been prosecuted for it. They have as much right to bash your church as you have to bash theirs. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?

Are you Protestant? Then, what they say about me, they say about you. Do you like being gravely deficient? Defective? Etc.? This goes way beyond bashing. It's one thing to dare a few jabs and digs, it's another to condemn a great many people because they refuse Catholicism.

Redwolf · May 10, 2006

ThePilgrim said:
The Catholic Church believes that it's the Church founded by Christ and that it has preserved the fulness of the Truth. Coming from that prespective, what would you expect them to say?

It's like what a friend of mine said when Benedict was elected pope and people got upset about what he believed in, all of which were the traditional Catholic stances: "Basically, people are upset because the pope is a Catholic."

The same applies in this case

I'd expect them to refrain from calling non-Catholics names that suggest inferiority.

GraceInHim · May 10, 2006

Mod Hat On

I am closing the thread for a bit for staff review due to many complaints and also so that everyone can take a breather as it appears that emotions are running high here.

Mod Hat Off

I'm improper, gravely deficient, and defective

I remember orange CF

Coffee drinker

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

† Need a lifeguard? Mine walks on water †

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency