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Ignosticism: What Is God?

fated

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REPOST, I think this was missed.

Why should I trust a corrupt church that hides its own pedophile priests?

We are very sorry. And, while, it does not excuse the problem, it is important to note that the problem existed in other places as well, even if it may have been a bit worse within the Catholic Church, but, we may never know, because many places were it was also strong, are immune from prosecution or lack funds that make law suits worthwhile or compelling to file.

Further, diocese across the US, at least, now require a class, a background check, and fingerprints, in order to carry out an work for the Church with Children.

I am sorry that this itself will likely cause any miraculous assertions to be ineffective in this format. Perhaps seeing very ancient intact bodies or something, such as, you could visit Lourdes?



So are you asserting that this "god" is separate from the known universe?

God did not create the universe from Himself, but from nothing.




How are you supposed to prove that you are indeed receiving divine revelation?

That is hardly up to me.




Well, within the context of the rest of what I wrote, I don't think I indicated an impersonal God, even the use of the word 'prophetic' seems to indicate a personal God. This is different from the usual tactic of questioning whether the prophetic nature of Humanae Vitae merely derives from correlation, rather than the causation, due to Natural Law, that the document asserts. Sometimes the degradation of society (such as the increase an divorce and STDs) is simply disregarded, but normally, the cause of these changes is just questioned.


I don't think that disbelieving gravity in general because someone might define it in some what that is incorrect is a reasonable approach.





Because, God, being a personal Being, visited history in a concrete way, to teach mankind about Himself, and also to save them.

Don't forget the Apocryphal Gospels and Gnostic texts. There are many different ways to interpret the life of "Jesus", so why is the divine Jesus theory correct?

Are any of these others old enough to even be considered to be alongside the existing books? Not in most cases. The best answer I get here is usually fudging numbers toward each other. Besides, the Traditions of the Catholic Church (and the Eastern Orthodox) are passed down by bishops, in an unbroken procession from the time of Christ. These are those with exceptional authority to express the reality of God visiting history.

Pure supposition.

I assume this regards the assertion involving an understanding of humanity, rather than a defining of God.


In all fairness, I don't think Ignosticism, as defined is a reasonable way to approach the existence of a Creator.

So does this mean that many of you are more like Agnostic Theists? Let's face it, everyone is born Agnostic, nobody knows anything on the subject until they're taught something about it.

Christian believe that knowing God, as a person, is the objective, and not defining Him. This makes more sense, even from a human perspective, as we rarely fully define anything, much less a complex thought or issue, how much less can we reasonably be expected to define God? Christians seek to know God, even if fully defining Him is impossible.



I'm not sure Zeus mythology is old enough to lead Judaism, it seems more likely the Zeus mythology was taken from Judaism or arose independently or perhaps by some strange prophetic means.

To die from seeing God is hardly surprising even if it takes a while to accomplish this, being smitten, or smote, by God.


I think those interpretations of prophecy do not fit in with the rest of the work. And hardly constitute a contradiction.



It seems not so much flaws or contradictions in logic, but a rejection of something much greater than man, that is difficult for man to understand, much less define, that is causing the trouble. Even asserting that God is unable to make contradictions, or that part of Divine Revelation and theology is understanding the exception of the contradiction or perhaps the contradiction can be described in some other way, possibly that agnostics do not see as important.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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In this sense, God exists definitely. You might even go as far as that a lot of Gods exists. I wonder what the atheists/agnostics make of this though.
 
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UnReAL13

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In this sense, God exists definitely. You might even go as far as that a lot of Gods exists. I wonder what the atheists/agnostics make of this though.

Well, there is a belief called Egotheism stating that every person is their own personal god.
 
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sandwiches

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So, from your reply where you think I should be anything but an atheist, I was right. You're afraid of accepting that you understand the question as you think that's the same as accepting the existence of God. I guess if you can't get past your mental block, we're at an impasse.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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So, from your reply where you think I should be anything but an atheist, I was right.

I don't think that you should be an atheist ... Sorry, if I gave you that impression.

I am waiting for you to tell me why you treat emotions and claims about emotions different from claims about belief in God? After all you brought this up about happyness and annoyance, in the context about belief in God. Here:
But I'm sure if someone asked you "Have you ever been happy?" or "Do you find crying babies annoying?" you'd understand them both well enough for communication to take place, even though 'happy' and 'annoying' can vary wildly from person to person or are you both telling me me that you're also ignostic to those questions?​



You're afraid of accepting that you understand the question as you think that's the same as accepting the existence of God.

I am not. But don't let that keep you.



Alternatively you might try to put the mental blocks aside, that you erroneously attribute to me, and start communicating. For instance you could tell me why one call, the one for happyness is good (if it is good), while another call, for seeing beauty and order within this world, for instance, is not.

Why do you accept other people's experiences of happyness/annoyance while rejecting their experiences of the divine?


I know where the difference is. Do you?





I guess if you can't get past your mental block, we're at an impasse.

Maybe you ought to be a little clearer with respects to what you are talking about, if you are talking about something, that is. Just a thought.
 
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sandwiches

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I think I'll start over since you still don't get the point of my original question and the reason for my comparison of emotions with god. To quickly recap, I was trying to show that the reasoning use for 'ignosticism' in the OP seems inconsistent. That the whole philosophy behind it is that there is not one single, clear definition of the word 'god.' Yet you don't seem to be ignostic when it comes to emotions which do not have clearly defined, objective definitions, either.

Again, and for the last time, I am NOT arguing that the existence of god is as likely as emotions. I am talking merely about WORDS and DEFINITIONS, and nothing about their relation to reality.

To put it as plain as I can: I cannot understand how you can claim to not be able to answer the question: "Do you believe in God" on the basis that the word 'god' can mean many different things to many different people but you're able to answer the question "Are you happy?" despite the fact that there are just as many different definitions of the word 'happy' as there are for 'god.'
 
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fated

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In this sense, God exists definitely. You might even go as far as that a lot of Gods exists. I wonder what the atheists/agnostics make of this though.
I hardly think that that is a fair interpretation of even that one paragraph of what I have said. It seems to reject that one knows anything at all about the concept of God and then use this one paragraph, and that in a very very general way, in order to decide that almost anyone could be God in the Christian sense I'm attempting to convey.

If we are going about defining something infinite, by definition, it is neither fair to except that it be fully defined, nor to use one paragraph as the full definition in order to... I don't know... obstruct the discussion?.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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And I told you that we can treat the questions "Are you happy?" and the question "Does God exist?" in the same fashion, or in a very similar fashion.

But I am doubtful that we actually do.




Again, and for the last time, I am NOT arguing that the existence of god is as likely as emotions. I am talking merely about WORDS and DEFINITIONS, and nothing about their relation to reality.




Happyness is an emotion. Or maybe if you wish, a set of several different emotions. And if you are asked if you are happy, then this question refers to what a person is experiencing. Ok so far? It is just about what you are superficially experiencing.

There is no intention in such a chit-chatty question to ask a deep (or pseudo-deep) philosophical question. It is not a question about whether happyness is just brain chemistry, say, or about whether happyness is better explained by idealism, or whether it really exists, or some such. It just refers to your most immediate experiences and no further strings attached.



This is not necessarily the case with God.

Presumably you are not asking about a set of superficial experiences. Otherwise, God tritely exists. (I don't have a problem with that. *shrugs* I just don't see people act like that consistently. And why should I?)

Presumbly you are asking precisely the kind of deep (or pseudo-deep) philosophical question that I alluded to above. It is not about, for instance, that people experience communion, communication or some such with God - they do, that is not the point at all. It is not about whether people experience something at all. But you already know that.

It is about whether or not communion is real communion with God, it is about whether or not communication is real communication with God and so on. And it is of course about whether I believe that they, or maybe even I, do really experience the real thing.

But an assessment of when it is real and when it is just something else demands first and foremost clarity.



You see the difference?
 
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Lord Emsworth

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I hardly think that that is a fair interpretation of even that one paragraph of what I have said. It seems to reject that one knows anything at all about the concept of God

You said that knowing is the objective. Fine by me, if you do that.


and then use this one paragraph, and that in a very very general way, in order to decide that almost anyone could be God in the Christian sense I'm attempting to convey.

Be God?? No, certainly not. Knowing, yes. Being, no. lol

There seems to have been some sort of misunderstanding. And I am utterly puzzled how you get "could be God" out of my post, or how UNReAL13 makes the leap for Egotheism for that matter. Hrmpf.


in the Christian sense I'm attempting to convey.

The various forms of Christianity are not alone, though.
 
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UnReAL13

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Whose bodies were they exactly?


God did not create the universe from Himself, but from nothing.

So you think this deity exists outside of the universe. And how can you be certain that the universe came from absolutely nothing?


That is hardly up to me.

The burden of proof is on the believer, not the skeptic. You're the one making the unknowable claim for the existence of some poorly defined thing. It is up to you.



What prophecies do you think are occurring?


I don't think that disbelieving gravity in general because someone might define it in some what that is incorrect is a reasonable approach.

Nobody ever said that gravitational effects don't exist. But we don't know what the exact "cause" of gravity is, and what this force actually is.


Because, God, being a personal Being, visited history in a concrete way, to teach mankind about Himself, and also to save them.

The alleged "history" isn't nearly as 'concrete' as you're putting it. This history is more like dirt, because it crumbles apart with ease.



And how can you be certain of the precise dating for any piece of scripture?


I assume this regards the assertion involving an understanding of humanity, rather than a defining of God.

Unless you believe that humans are "gods".


In all fairness, I don't think Ignosticism, as defined is a reasonable way to approach the existence of a Creator.

In all fairness, you haven't shown us why a "creator" couldn't be something entirely abstract such as line of code from an algorithm.



So god is a person now? Which one exactly? Osiris? Zeus?



Judaism was polytheistic. The word "god" is mistranslated in the Bible. The original Hebrew was "elohim", the plural form of "god". How can you be sure that it wasn't the other polytheistic religions of the time influencing Judaism?


I think those interpretations of prophecy do not fit in with the rest of the work. And hardly constitute a contradiction.

I think your god is supposed to be a fire-deity after reading that. Perhaps your "God" is actually "Satan".



The agnostics use deductive reasoning. Ignosticism is a form of inductive reasoning. Since this concept is so vague and ambiguous to begin with, induction is required to determine anything related to the subject at all.
 
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ToHoldNothing

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I think one of the primary misunderstandings here that I've observed after reading 10 pages of this so far is that ignostic is somehow interpreted to be equivalent to being radically skeptical of every word we define. But I don't think that's the case. Ignostics are explicitly using the term in a very pointed context, theology and the difficulties that arise from associating particular properties to an entity like God and then qualifying how they're different from all the lesser things that might also possess these properties in different, but similar ways.

Something can be meaningful to an individual, but meaningless in a universal sense. A better word might be use-less, instead of meaningless. One can understand potentially every single conception of God possible, but it basically proves the point of ignosticism; in short, the word and term God is meaningless, or more accurately and clearly, useless, because it could apply to a number of similarly believed in, but demonstrably contradictory things such as God being the universe, but then also defined and used as a similar term for something is believed to absolutely not be the universe but in fact transcending it.

I discussed this question somewhat today in our final presentations for a Medieval Philosophy class, albeit I was discussing the related difficulties of theological noncognitivism, but I could've just as easily replaced that with ignosticism and had a more fruitful discussion about the definition of God, not the use of the term.

Basically, I concluded that at best, people can try to define God, but they must admit by any logical or philosophical honesty that the definition they present, whatever it might be, is neither falsifiable nor rationally compelling, but is based on revelation or faith. That is my position that is a combination of apatheism, ignosticism and theological noncognitivism, along with the more modern use of agnosticism, as opposed to Huxley's version of what I understand to be radical skepticism, that is, nothing is absolutely certain, in a sense.
 
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ToHoldNothing

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You're comparing apples and oranges here. They are both fruits, if you will, they are both diversely defined words. But the difference is that happiness is more particular to each person as opposed to necessarily being completely objective. And there are different levels of it. God is supposed to be objectively existent, even proven rationally to an extent according to some. yet there isn't any consistent definition when you think about the term across history, even if we assumed certain characteristics, such as it being a single entity (even with the Trinity hoo ha that honestly seems to contradict that when you think about it), there would be necessary disagreement about other things, like whether the entity was transcendent or immanent or whether it intervened in human affairs or not.
 
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fated

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Whose bodies were they exactly?

I believe the young lady who saw the apparition is entombed there.




So you think this deity exists outside of the universe. And how can you be certain that the universe came from absolutely nothing?

You're asking a history question in the guise of a theology question. God created everything from nothing, could be seen as a historical statement, but the question you pose indicates something that cannot be studied.




The burden of proof is on the believer, not the skeptic. You're the one making the unknowable claim for the existence of some poorly defined thing. It is up to you.

I did not say it was up to you to prove anything. I left it rather ambiguous, intentionally so.




What prophecies do you think are occurring?

Ussually, those that indicate wide spread use of the sexual faculties for pleasure, completely devoid of reproductive capacity, leading to breakdown of marriage, increase crime, and disease are generally cited.




Nobody ever said that gravitational effects don't exist. But we don't know what the exact "cause" of gravity is, and what this force actually is.

So, you believe in gravity.




The alleged "history" isn't nearly as 'concrete' as you're putting it. This history is more like dirt, because it crumbles apart with ease.

Do you think that the 'history' of Abe Lincoln is more concrete, or how about someone like Socrates?



And how can you be certain of the precise dating for any piece of scripture?

It's somewhat complicate. If you pick up a few commentaries that deal in this issue (I would recommend those that come to somewhat varied conclusions), you'll be at the beginning of understanding the methodology.





Unless you believe that humans are "gods".

Is this merely to be argumentative?


In all fairness, you haven't shown us why a "creator" couldn't be something entirely abstract such as line of code from an algorithm.

So, you are proposing an algorithm god that has at least similar historical evidence as the Catholic understanding of God?





So god is a person now? Which one exactly? Osiris? Zeus?

You do realize that I am Christian and probably that I am Catholic, this does not seem like a rational way to interpret the things I have written thus far. It seems to be unreasonably cutting down all the defining of God I've done down to a single statement and then attacking it, rather than dealing with the definition as a whole or how this particular statement works within that context. It seems like an unnecessary obstruction rather than an attempt at understanding.






Judaism was polytheistic. The word "god" is mistranslated in the Bible. The original Hebrew was "elohim", the plural form of "god". How can you be sure that it wasn't the other polytheistic religions of the time influencing Judaism?

Your assertion that Judaism was polytheistic is highly questionable, given the nature of their literary works dealing with the subject. You seem to be using a very limited argument to insist that a contradiction exist precisely as you see it. In fact, with just a very limited research into the matter, it seems the the singular is generally used just as a proper noun, and the plural form used routinely to denote a singular god, whether God or pagan deities. This makes sense, because the tradition of Jews was to avoid writing the name 'God' because it is so sacred. Many continue to do so to this day, and you will see them use 'G-d' instead.

Having heard this explanation will you refrain from using your argument in the future? (the answer to this question more or less explains how interested you are in actually understanding another position enough to make a judgment on it)






I think your god is supposed to be a fire-deity after reading that. Perhaps your "God" is actually "Satan".

Important because you are so interested in making a fair and unbiased interpretation?




The agnostics use deductive reasoning. Ignosticism is a form of inductive reasoning. Since this concept is so vague and ambiguous to begin with, induction is required to determine anything related to the subject at all.

I do not think that vague and ambiguous actually describe the situation. It is because the subject is so immense, when you discuss "God" that there is difficulty in defining the subject completely. Indeed, the person of Jesus Christ is specific enough to disregard the assertions of vague and ambiguous.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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What has Jesus got to do with it? He is only not vague and ambiguous as long as you concentrate on the "natural", or better maybe, some guy-as-we-know-it side. Once you bring in Jesus as the actual son of God (or whatever is the right diction here) it is the same problem all over again. It is just an illusion of clarity.
 
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UnReAL13

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I believe the young lady who saw the apparition is entombed there.

So how do you know this young lady actually saw anything? Maybe she was hallucinating.


You're asking a history question in the guise of a theology question. God created everything from nothing, could be seen as a historical statement, but the question you pose indicates something that cannot be studied.

It actually is being studied at Fermilab and CERN. Particle collisions bring us closer and closer to unraveling this mystery.


Ussually, those that indicate wide spread use of the sexual faculties for pleasure, completely devoid of reproductive capacity, leading to breakdown of marriage, increase crime, and disease are generally cited.

I suppose you have some other general self-fulfilling prophecies that could've easily been deduced analytically, without any kind of divine intervention. Why not just prophesy that there will be people who will be skeptical to all spiritual claims, and even some who disbelieve such claims. Oh but I guess that already happened.


So, you believe in gravity.

Measuring the effects of something doesn't ultimately determine the root cause. If this was true, then black holes exist definitely as they've been described. But nobody has actually been able to observe a black hole, we've only seen the effects that a potential black hole generates.


Do you think that the 'history' of Abe Lincoln is more concrete, or how about someone like Socrates?

Yes, they are more concrete. There are no conflicting accounts for their existence.


So, you are proposing an algorithm god that has at least similar historical evidence as the Catholic understanding of God?

Since there's no historical evidence for the "Catholic" interpretation of "God", then yes.



Genesis 1:26 - 'Then God said "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves."'

Sounds awfully pluralized there. Considering the original word was "Elohim", this line of scripture makes a bit more sense. But then you'll try to rationalize this with your triple-god trinity.


Important because you are so interested in making a fair and unbiased interpretation?

So it's unfair to take your holy book literally? Are you saying the people who wrote Ezekiel didn't mean what they had written?



Is Jesus Christ specific enough? Who or what was Jesus Christ exactly?
 
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UnReAL13

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I'm somewhat apathetic towards the matter as well. I might even consider myself an "Apathetic Ignostic Neutralist".
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Doesn't that fact that you are talking about different definition's of God, and different conceptions of the divine nature, betray the fact that you actually have a rational grasp of "God talk" and it's various connotations, rather than being in a position where you cannot make sense of what is on the pages before you?
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Now you are simply inventiong definitions of terms as you go along.That is not the standard definition of "supernatural" if you don't get it. I think user Sandwiches has it in that you are probably being "purposefully obstuse in not understanding the question".
 
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