If you present a lie as truth, are you also lying?

Philothei said:

True they can carry fallacies... and they can be deliberate but still do you consider scientology a "religion" I was thinking more a cult. I was kind of talking about Christianity etc. I agree that new type of "religions" can be just plain out "wisdom of men" to attract the volunatrable and naive ....

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"Religion" and "cult" are just degrees of the same thing.

Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism - they each make truth claims, many in direct contradiction of the truth claims of the others. They cannot all be right. So it's very clear that religions are not all correct, and they can be deeply misleading.

Of course, there's a difference between "mistaken" and "lying", and it's an important difference. But many religions also require a degree of suspension of disbelief; simply believing is considered a virtue. That is arguably an example of self-deception, and hence of dishonesty.

"Religion" and "cult" are just degrees of the same thing.

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Religion is established and accepted by many. Cult is a "variation" and a "closed" system that has its own "rules" and "system". Most cults are dangerous since they work to "brainwash" its members to even do self-harm... They are can become dangerous to society as the Davidians... To me that is quite a difference

Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism - they each make truth claims, many in direct contradiction of the truth claims of the others. They cannot all be right. So it's very clear that religions are not all correct, and they can be deeply misleading.

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Christ' s message is not contradictory at least for me. I do agree with you they are not all right that is for sure. One has to come to believe for themselves which is right and which is wrong. Just because the process is confusing that does not mean necessarily that they are ALL wrong... though...

Of course, there's a difference between "mistaken" and "lying", and it's an important difference. But many religions also require a degree of suspension of disbelief; simply believing is considered a virtue. That is arguably an example of self-deception, and hence of dishonesty.[/quote

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I agree there is a huge difference between the two... Leap of faith is hardly IMO "blind obedience"... As a Christian I do not believe that I do not have a right to ask and doubt.... I am human and prone to doubts and unbelief. What I think that is different is that I it defenately not "blind belief" rather a very rational and conscious decision making.
The fact that a church organization is using "false" information to sway public opinion is not only ridiculous but spiritually harmfull

Philothei said:

Religion is established and accepted by many. Cult is a "variation" and a "closed" system that has its own "rules" and "system". Most cults are dangerous since they work to "brainwash" its members to even do self-harm... They are can become dangerous to society as the Davidians... To me that is quite a difference

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Religions can also use techniques that could be called "brainwashing", and can become dangerous. It depends on your point of view. $cientology is an extreme example, but the same sorts of techniques have been used in religions for centuries: do you understand the effects that speaking/singing in unison can have, for example?

Philothei said:

Christ' s message is not contradictory at least for me. I do agree with you they are not all right that is for sure. One has to come to believe for themselves which is right and which is wrong. Just because the process is confusing that does not mean necessarily that they are ALL wrong... though...

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My point was not that religions are internally contradictory (although a case can be made for most that they are), but that they contradict one another, which indicates that they cannot all be correct.

As an outsider, it is difficult to see any reason to pick one set of mythology, ritual, tradition, &c. over another. Remember that we're talking about truth, not just what appeals to us. Simply liking the sound of Christianity (or Islam or Buddhism) is not enough to justify believing in it. You have to actually believe its truth claims. And to an outsider, the truth claims of most religions seem equally implausible.

Philothei said:

I agree there is a huge difference between the two... Leap of faith is hardly IMO "blind obedience"... As a Christian I do not believe that I do not have a right to ask and doubt.... I am human and prone to doubts and unbelief. What I think that is different is that I it defenately not "blind belief" rather a very rational and conscious decision making.
The fact that a church organization is using "false" information to sway public opinion is not only ridiculous but spiritually harmfull

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As long as religious belief is sincere and considered, I do not consider it dishonest, although it may be mistaken.

Religions can also use techniques that could be called "brainwashing", and can become dangerous. It depends on your point of view. $cientology is an extreme example, but the same sorts of techniques have been used in religions for centuries: do you understand the effects that speaking/singing in unison can have, for example?

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True.. if they become self-serving and not faith based....

My point was not that religions are internally contradictory (although a case can be made for most that they are), but that they contradict one another, which indicates that they cannot all be correct.

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The fact they contradict each other is that they do not worship the same God... maybe? i.e. The Christian God versus a god of the Greek Pantheon is anthropomorphic.... We can deduce that much...Defenately they do contradict... that is for sure...

As an outsider, it is difficult to see any reason to pick one set of mythology, ritual, tradition, &c. over another. Remember that we're talking about truth, not just what appeals to us. Simply liking the sound of Christianity (or Islam or Buddhism) is not enough to justify believing in it. You have to actually believe its truth claims. And to an outsider, the truth claims of most religions seem equally implausible.

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Truly understandable although an "outsider": sometimes has more of a critical mind than someone else who is biased...Most of the times our perception and biases destroy our abiblity to use a critical mind and see thing for what they truly are and we come to illogical conclusions. Keeping an open mind is defenately a route to go when seeking... Anything else would be to compromise that truth...

To an atheist the idea of belief is something outside himself might be implausible... except what is empirically proven maybe by science. On the other hand though there might be a reality that is not of this realm but another ....Let's say of spiritual nature... We cannot deny that it does not exist either.

As long as religious belief is sincere and considered, I do not consider it dishonest, although it may be mistaken.

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I agree. No one shoud think that because they think they are right ... they have the right to act insincere... God acts in our world regardless our help or not and playing God in the world I do not believe is our place...