If you believe there is no hell . . .

double_j · Feb 4, 2005

literalism will get you no where. The bible is a guide, as such it uses much figurative language. IF Jesus spoke in parables and figurative language, then why do you think he wasnt at this particular subject?

Is if for you to pick and choose what parts of the bible you want to take seriously? IF one part is in a literal sense and another figurative, how are you to judge?

theseed · Feb 4, 2005

Jerusha_Girl said:
Are you saying that the Divine can only have mercy on us to save us?? The Divine can't decide to have mercy on us just because??

Well, those of us who don't believe in hell generally don't need Christ... That's why they aren't Christian. If they needed Christ, they'd be Christian.

Jerusha

Are you saying that the Divine can only have mercy on us to save us?? The Divine can't decide to have mercy on us just because??

Correct, you can't have mercy "just because".'

Well, those of us who don't believe in hell generally don't need Christ... That's why they aren't Christian. If they needed Christ, they'd be Christian.

Click to expand...

I thought this was a Christina only subforum

I am asking this questions to Christians who don't believe in Hell.

Arikereba · Feb 4, 2005

If I worship you because I hope to gain heaven, withhold heaven from me;
And if I worship you because I fear hell, then throw me into hell;
But if I worship you because I love you, don't deny me your presence, or turn your face from me.

(A prayer I read on fantasy author Holly Lisle's web site, which she says she's misquoting from somewhere--I can't track down the original source.)

That about sums it up for me.

theseed · Feb 4, 2005

Jerusha_girl said:
Why not?? People have mercy on others "just because" all the time.

By definition.

mercy

n 1: leniency and compassion shown toward offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice; "he threw himself on the mercy of the court" [syn: clemency, mercifulness] 2: a disposition to be kind and forgiving; "in those days a wife had to depend on the mercifulness of her husband" [syn: mercifulness] [ant: mercilessness] 3: the feeling that motivates compassion [syn: mercifulness] 4: something for which to be thankful; "it was a mercy we got out alive" 5: alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed; "distributing food and clothing to the flood victims was an act of mercy"

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

*Starlight* · Feb 5, 2005

double_j said:
what greater torment could there be than to know your creater, know his kingdom and then be denied it all because of your choices?

If youa re cut off from God, and you are in nothingness, with no light, no stimulus whatsoever, completely alone forever, youa re without any physical reality and you cant go anywhere, essentially you are inside your mind for eternity, would that not be enough to make you weep and gnash your teeth (figuratively since you will not have them)?

Especially witht he knowledge of all you could have had if you had changed your ways. You would have nothing to do but contemplate your life and your existance. I would equate it to being stuck in a coffin and burried, but staying alive some how. Thats more torture than I want to endure for eternity.

That's cruel and sadistic. If God's love is infinite, then there should always be the possibility to repent.

double_j · Feb 5, 2005

Arikereba said:
If I worship you because I hope to gain heaven, withhold heaven from me;
And if I worship you because I fear hell, then throw me into hell;
But if I worship you because I love you, don't deny me your presence, or turn your face from me.

(A prayer I read on fantasy author Holly Lisle's web site, which she says she's misquoting from somewhere--I can't track down the original source.)

That about sums it up for me.

Thats pretty nifty. I think I will use that as a quote on another forum, that is, if you dont mind.

double_j · Feb 5, 2005

starlight_86 said:
That's cruel and sadistic. If God's love is infinite, then there should always be the possibility to repent.

I agree fully. I wonder if when you have fully come to terms with your sins and have repented fully and accepted God, if you will be forgiven and allowed into God's Kingdom.

raphael_aa · Feb 5, 2005

Arikereba said:
If I worship you because I hope to gain heaven, withhold heaven from me;
And if I worship you because I fear hell, then throw me into hell;
But if I worship you because I love you, don't deny me your presence, or turn your face from me.

(A prayer I read on fantasy author Holly Lisle's web site, which she says she's misquoting from somewhere--I can't track down the original source.)

That about sums it up for me.

I have a suspiscion its from 'The Imitation of Christ' by Thomas a Kempis

raphael_aa · Feb 5, 2005

Are we saying here that the only way God's mercy may be meaningful is if He must actively create a place of eternal torture, sentence all of us to it, and then rescue some of us thereby showing mercy? What is wrong with this picture?

The character of God revealed during our lives is that God showers grace and mercy on all of us without distinction in all manner of diverse ways. We are then asked to believed that this behaviour abruptly ceases on our death and that God essentialy becomes a binary machine: input a human life and the output is either eternal bliss or eternal torment. To me (and it is only opinion) this seems too simplistic. I certainly believe that our behaviour on earth has consequences. Its consequences may even extend beyond the grave. But I am unconvinced there is ever an 'endpoint' to mercy for God. As a father, I can never envisage an endpoint to the mercy and grace I extend to my children. How can I be more generous than God?

coyoteBR · Feb 5, 2005

There are pretty good answers already. God Does not Need a hell to show His Love for us. And we don't need a hell to show our love for God.

And Jesus' Message is the same, with or without hell. I dont know anyone that considers hell a condition to follow the "Love God above everything and your neighbour like yourself" Law.

theseed · Feb 5, 2005

CoyoteBR said:
There are pretty good answers already. God Does not Need a hell to show His Love for us. And we don't need a hell to show our love for God.

And Jesus' Message is the same, with or without hell. I dont know anyone that considers hell a condition to follow the "Love God above everything and your neighbour like yourself" Law.

I didn't ask about love, I asked about mercy.

theseed · Feb 5, 2005

we saying here that the only way God's mercy may be meaningful is if He must actively create a place of eternal torture, sentence all of us to it, and then rescue some of us thereby showing mercy? What is wrong with this picture?

Nothing. Why would God tolerate sin?

The character of God revealed during our lives is that God showers grace and mercy on all of us without distinction in all manner of diverse ways. We are then asked to believed that this behaviour abruptly ceases on our death and that God essentialy becomes a binary machine: input a human life and the output is either eternal bliss or eternal torment. To me (and it is only opinion) this seems too simplistic. I certainly believe that our behaviour on earth has consequences. Its consequences may even extend beyond the grave. But I am unconvinced there is ever an 'endpoint' to mercy for God. As a father, I can never envisage an endpoint to the mercy and grace I extend to my children. How can I be more generous than God?

Though reasonable, it has not Scriptural backing. God has only one Son, Jesus Christ (John 3.16). It is true that God has mercy and grace on us all, but it is not true that he grants salvation for all. Both mercy and grace imply that God is having compassion on us, which in turn means that we need mercy and grace? But why? If there is no hell, then why does he need to hold back punishment? Some have suggested that Hell will be empty because God will save all.

However, Scripture does not support this possition.

According to John 3:16, God's purpose in giving is Son is to save all. However it does not say "whosever . . . will not perish" but "whosoever . . . should not perish".

[bible]John 3:16[/bible]

Also, we read in Romans 11 that God put a slumber on the Iraelites so that only a remnant should remain. He cut some off so that some Gentiles might be saved.

[bible]Romans 11:5-8[/bible]

[bible]Romans 11:18-21[/bible]

theseed · Feb 5, 2005

starlight_86 said:
That's cruel and sadistic. If God's love is infinite, then there should always be the possibility to repent.

How long should God intolerate injustice?

Chrysalis Kat · Feb 5, 2005

theseed said:
How long should God intolerate injustice?

Well I think that since God has as looooooooong as ETERNITY God won't be in any kind of big rush.

True Believer · Feb 6, 2005

FadingWhispers3 said:
Off Topic question: what is 'hell' if 'hell' will be thrown into a lake of fire? Is hell destroyed by itself?

Hell and Sheol are other terms for the common Grave which all go to when they die. Gehenna is the Lake of Fire. Gehenna is not Hell. This is a misconception perpetuated by the Church to gain control of the people to have them do as the Clergy told them to.
Death is to be done away with and is symbolized by it's being thrown into the Lake of Fire or Gehenna. The Valley of Hinnom was a literal place alongside Jerusalem where the dead criminals and Garbage were thrown it was a dump that burned continually. This was used as a parrallel to Gehenna so the Jews would understand what would happen
Agape' TB

raphael_aa · Feb 6, 2005

How long should God intolerate injustice?

Nothing. Why would God tolerate sin?

Orthodox christian doctrine is that we have ALL sinned. God seems perfectly able to tolerate our sin if we accept the accounting trick of Jesus taking our punishment. (I am aware this is an oversimplification.)

We are now talking about the delicate balancing act that God performs between justice and mercy. Which one wins out 'in the end'? For those who believe in an eternal punishment, justice is God's supremely defining characteristic. For them, there is some point beyond which mercy no longer is an option. For those who do not believe in hell, God's mercy and generosity triumph over judgement. Justice will always give way to mercy. I'm quite prepared to believe that we have BOTH got it wrong and that God's solution maintains the balance between mercy and justice.

john14_20 · Feb 7, 2005

raphael_aa said:
I personally do not believe in hell. It does not square with my understanding of the God I know at this time.

My understanding of God's mercy is that He extends mercy to us all at all times by placing us in a world where we may mature spiritually. Some of us accept that mercy more readily than others. What happens to a person who steadfastly refuses to grow over the course of their life? I honestly don't know. If our individual consciousnesses continue (and I am not convinced they do) I suspect that God continues to woo them. 'Hell' then is that state we ourselves choose. It is never God's intention for any of us and I would be surprised if anyone could remain stubborn for eternity.

Spot on

john14_20 · Feb 7, 2005

theseed said:
The following passage indicates that Christ does not pay for the sins of all,

Hebrews (KJV)

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The following passage indicates that Christ did pay for the sins of all.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

Received · Feb 7, 2005

I think this is a thin and biased definition of mercy expressed in the OP. The universalist doesn't define mercy as something "not deserved" but something beyond desert, because love is beyond desert. You don't love someone because you owe them something; you love them because you do. In this sense, God's mercy is actually the end of, and a form of escape to, His punishing sin in this life, for men are rewarded according to their work in this life (Psalm 62:12), which brings me to the next point: the concept of death and sin, to the universalist, is not something that should even be considered post-mortem. Indeed, imitating Jesus, it isn't necessary to worry for tomorrow, for tomorrow will have its own troubles. The concepts of sin and death have refernce to now (cf. Romans 7), unambiguously, and consequently salvation has reference to now, as indicated by Matthew 1:21 for instance, that states that Christ has come to save men from their sins, and the prayer of Christ in John 17:3 that declares that eternal life is now, something qualitative, not quantitative. The universalist isn't saying that everyone will get a "free ride" in regards to heaven; he is saying that sin is very much a difficulty and problem and punishment overlooked by many a myopic theologian. Cf. Calvinist theologian Erwin Lutzer, who stated that if all men will be redeemed after death, there is therefore no "pressing need" to preach the gospel. Nonsense. The gospel is life and life in abundance -- now. The soul is condemned, hence the soul needs an easy yoke. These concepts are littered all throughout the New Testament. We perish not because there is a Hell after death, but because our souls have died; accepting Christ the paramount means by which we are given new life.

Mercy is simply that form of benevolence expressed from a higher power to a lower -- in this case, from God to man. To say that it is "not getting what you want" is not necessarily so, and is also dangerous to your conception of justice. By upholding this form of mercy you are simultaneously contradicting the justice that is so very essential to benevolence; for it is in giving men what they don't deserve that you are breaking what they do. The universalist says, echoing George MacDonald and the psalmist in Psalm 62:12, that there is no dichotomy between mercy and justice; that in God mercy and justice meet; that without justice to the full there can be no mercy, and without mercy to the full there can be no justice.

theseed · Feb 7, 2005

Recieved said:
of Christ in John 17:3 that declares that eternal life is now, something qualitative, not quantitative.

In John, quality and quantity are the same thing. Take for example the water-into-wine-miracle (John 2) and hte feeding of the 5000 (John 6). And spring water (John 4).

Also, after ressurecting Lazurus, Christ promises that anyone who believes in him will never see death. Since death is the end of life, then life he speaks of must be truly eternal.

John 11:25-2625 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Also, we must not ignore that fact that we are in sin alreadly, and already condmened unless we believe in Christ.

John 3:16-2116 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Also, we must not ingore what the ancients believed about death, even after our corpse rots, we still will see God in our flesh, if we know our redeemer.

Job 19:25-2625 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

The gospel is life and life in abundance -- now. The soul is condemned, hence the soul needs an easy yoke. These concepts are littered all throughout the New Testament. We perish not because there is a Hell after death, but because our souls have died; accepting Christ the paramount means by which we are given new life.

No only would there be no reason to preach to The Gospel, there would be no reason for Christ to die on the cross. After all, if hell is not eternal or non-existant. We could remain in our sins and pay for them our selves. This is why I ask if we need person, which by definition, means that we deserve punishment.

You don't love someone because you owe them something; you love them because you do.

Actually, God owes us nothing. God gives because he is gracious. This is the definition of grace--giving us something we don't deserve.

Mercy is simply that form of benevolence expressed from a higher power to a lower -- in this case, from God to man.

No, that is just love. Don't confuse mercy with love.

By upholding this form of mercy you are simultaneously contradicting the justice that is so very essential to benevolence; for it is in giving men what they don't deserve that you are breaking what they do.

Now, you are confusing mercy and grace. God can give both or neither, or one or the other. They don't have to go hand-in-hand. And yes, God does have justice, that is why there is hell, and that is why he must have mercy to save sinners. But he can't justly have mercy unless Christ pays for our sins.

These concepts are littered all throughout the New Testament. We perish not because there is a Hell after death, but because our souls have died; accepting Christ the paramount means by which we are given new life.

So we are given new life only to die again? Isn't that like a life guard jumping into the ocean, swiming them to a boat, only then later to refuse to let the man drown again?

MacDonald and the psalmist in Psalm 62:12, that there is no dichotomy between mercy and justice; that in God mercy and justice meet; that without justice to the full there can be no mercy, and without mercy to the full there can be no justice.

McDonald erringly equates justice with mercy. Mercy is witholding justice (what we justly deserve).

If you believe there is no hell . . .

Member

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time

Member

Member

Wild eyed liberal

Wild eyed liberal

greetings

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

Gettin' Riggy With It

Well-Known Member

Wild eyed liberal

...you in me and I in you

...you in me and I in you

True love waits in haunted attics

Contributor

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency