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Something that all three of you seem to be overlooking is that ever since humans have been writing down and recording the events that have been of any significance, there has always been in these writings, the existence of a set of objective moral standards. The Law Code of Hammurabi, and The Ten Commandments are ones we are all familiar with.
The law codes and values and standards existing since the beginning of the human race in every part of the world where there have been humans living in a society are the undeniable evidence of the existence of this standard. Any student of sociology can tell you this. Any student of ancient history can tell you this.
Something that all three of you seem to be overlooking is that ever since humans have been writing down and recording the events that have been of any significance, there has always been in these writings, the existence of a set of objective moral standards. The Law Code of Hammurabi, and The Ten Commandments are ones we are all familiar with.
The law codes and values and standards existing since the beginning of the human race in every part of the world where there have been humans living in a society are the undeniable evidence of the existence of this standard. Any student of sociology can tell you this. Any student of ancient history can tell you this.
I agree with your definition of an objective moral value.
Now please show evidence that such a standard exists, explain where it came from, and why we are all bound by it.
Just because many people share common values does not make those values objective in any way. You must be able to distinguish an objective moral, from a subjective moral that many people happen to agree on to be able to prove your point.... and show evidence to confirm your statement.
The existence of an objective moral standard finds its source in God, specifically the God of the Judeo-Christian worldview. This is the evidence:
1. God created man and woman in His image and in His likeness. Part of the "image bearing" quality that is unique to humans is the fact that we have an intellect (mind), emotion (feeling), will (choice), and a conscience (moral capacity).
2. This last is what makes us particularly unique because it is reflective of His very nature.
3. An aspect related to this moral capacity is the ability to recognize the existence of objective moral standards which are prescriptive, perfect, objective, and universal and are evidenced by the following:
A. the universality of basic moral beliefs
B. the unavoidability of making moral judgments
C. the inescapability of there being a perfect standard by which we measure the imperfections in the world (we can't know injustice unless we know what is just).
D. the impossibility of making judgments about the progress (or regress) of the human race unless there is an external objective moral standard by which we measure the human race.
E. the fact that we make excuses for ourselves when we break the moral law.
F. the moral guilt we suffer from breaking the moral law.
G. the fact that the moral law, like the laws of mathematics, is discovered and not invented.
H. the reality that we sometimes act from a sense of duty (e.g. to save a life), even when our strongest instinct to survive tells us not to risk our lives or safety to do so.
I. the truth that we find some things in all cultures (like genocide or rape) that we perceive are wrong and evil.
J. the fact that some things we do (such as kill, lie, steal, cheat, or be disloyal), we do not want others to do to us.
Therefore as humans, we are capable of thinking, feeling, and choosing, and also have the moral capacity to know right from wrong. As such, humans are morally responsible to the Moral Lawgiver - God, the creator.
The existence of an objective moral standard finds its source in God, specifically the God of the Judeo-Christian worldview.
This is the evidence:
1. God created man and woman in His image and in His likeness. Part of the "image bearing" quality that is unique to humans is the fact that we have an intellect (mind), emotion (feeling), will (choice), and a conscience (moral capacity).
2. This last is what makes us particularly unique because it is reflective of His very nature.
3. An aspect related to this moral capacity is the ability to recognize the existence of objective moral standards which are prescriptive, perfect, objective, and universal and are evidenced by the following:
A. the universality of basic moral beliefs
B. the unavoidability of making moral judgments
C. the inescapability of there being a perfect standard by which we measure the imperfections in the world (we can't know injustice unless we know what is just).
D. the impossibility of making judgments about the progress (or regress) of the human race unless there is an external objective moral standard by which we measure the human race.
E. the fact that we make excuses for ourselves when we break the moral law.
F. the moral guilt we suffer from breaking the moral law.
G. the fact that the moral law, like the laws of mathematics, is discovered and not invented.
H. the reality that we sometimes act from a sense of duty (e.g. to save a life), even when our strongest instinct to survive tells us not to risk our lives or safety to do so.
I. the truth that we find some things in all cultures (like genocide or rape) that we perceive are wrong and evil.
J. the fact that some things we do (such as kill, lie, steal, cheat, or be disloyal), we do not want others to do to us.
Therefore as humans, we are capable of thinking, feeling, and choosing, and also have the moral capacity to know right from wrong. As such, humans are morally responsible to the Moral Lawgiver - God, the creator.
This is an assertion. You have yet to demonstrate that an objective moral standard exists much less that a deity is responsible for it.Elioenai26 said:The existence of an objective moral standard finds its source in God, specifically the God of the Judeo-Christian worldview. This is the evidence:
1. God created man and woman in His image and in His likeness. Part of the "image bearing" quality that is unique to humans is the fact that we have an intellect (mind), emotion (feeling), will (choice), and a conscience (moral capacity).
How do you know the existence or pervasiveness of our conscience has anything to do with God?2. This last is what makes us particularly unique because it is reflective of His very nature.
I don't think all moral claims are universal. I think some ought to be mandatory in all societies (prohibition of rape, theft, murder, violence etc) - but I recognise their origin as entirely human or more broadly a consideration only relevant and possible within the context of an intelligent social species.3. An aspect related to this moral capacity is the ability to recognize the existence of objective moral standards which are prescriptive, perfect, objective, and universal and are evidenced by the following:
A. the universality of basic moral beliefs
This is so, but there's no reason to attribute such to God.B. the unavoidability of making moral judgments
How does noticing the problems of the world necessitate there being a perfect standard be it hypothetical or actual?C. the inescapability of there being a perfect standard by which we measure the imperfections in the world (we can't know injustice unless we know what is just).
D. the impossibility of making judgments about the progress (or regress) of the human race unless there is an external objective moral standard by which we measure the human race.[/quite]
This is untrue. Our moral judgements are actually extremely insular. We only consider the plight of our own species. It has only been in recent years that animal rights have been considered and even fewer that keeping species alive has been a concern. We measure the human race broadly by how good our health, freedom and general well-being are.
We aspire for equality, an end to poverty and oppression but these are human concerns not some ethereal "perfect standard".
This happens sometimes. Not always. Not related to a God anyway.E. the fact that we make excuses for ourselves when we break the moral law.
Well, yes. Though what you and I consider the "moral law" differ. I am sure you consider not adulating God immoral and things such as fornication and homosexuality wrong yet I do not or would not feel the slightest guilt for violating any of that.F. the moral guilt we suffer from breaking the moral law.
This is a claim. We postulate our moral ideas and formulate ethical systems.G. the fact that the moral law, like the laws of mathematics, is discovered and not invented.
They don't 'exist' before we establish them. They are human made.
This is true. Not sure what it has to do with God.H. the reality that we sometimes act from a sense of duty (e.g. to save a life), even when our strongest instinct to survive tells us not to risk our lives or safety to do so.
This is a reiteration of your other points. These things are wrong based on them being incompatible with a civil society and the displacement and destruction it causes to individuals.I. the truth that we find some things in all cultures (like genocide or rape) that we perceive are wrong and evil.
That's out of self-interest and is also the beginning of the argument as to why murder, deception, theft and cheating are immoral. We can establish common ground to argue those things as immoral. None of us would not like to be on the receiving end of it.J. the fact that some things we do (such as kill, lie, steal, cheat, or be disloyal), we do not want others to do to us.
Your analysis, some of which is true partially, some of which is not and some of which identifies incorrect causes to has nothing to do with God. You made no connection to God - you just assumed it.Therefore as humans, we are capable of thinking, feeling, and choosing, and also have the moral capacity to know right from wrong. As such, humans are morally responsible to the Moral Lawgiver - God, the creator.
The existence of an objective moral standard finds its source in God, specifically the God of the Judeo-Christian worldview. This is the evidence:
1. God created man and woman in His image and in His likeness. Part of the "image bearing" quality that is unique to humans is the fact that we have an intellect (mind), emotion (feeling), will (choice), and a conscience (moral capacity).
2. This last is what makes us particularly unique because it is reflective of His very nature.
3. An aspect related to this moral capacity is the ability to recognize the existence of objective moral standards which are prescriptive, perfect, objective, and universal and are evidenced by the following:
A. the universality of basic moral beliefs
B. the unavoidability of making moral judgments
C. the inescapability of there being a perfect standard by which we measure the imperfections in the world (we can't know injustice unless we know what is just).
D. the impossibility of making judgments about the progress (or regress) of the human race unless there is an external objective moral standard by which we measure the human race.
E. the fact that we make excuses for ourselves when we break the moral law.
F. the moral guilt we suffer from breaking the moral law.
G. the fact that the moral law, like the laws of mathematics, is discovered and not invented.
H. the reality that we sometimes act from a sense of duty (e.g. to save a life), even when our strongest instinct to survive tells us not to risk our lives or safety to do so.
I. the truth that we find some things in all cultures (like genocide or rape) that we perceive are wrong and evil.
J. the fact that some things we do (such as kill, lie, steal, cheat, or be disloyal), we do not want others to do to us.
Therefore as humans, we are capable of thinking, feeling, and choosing, and also have the moral capacity to know right from wrong. As such, humans are morally responsible to the Moral Lawgiver - God, the creator.
So why did you even bring up how broadly popular certain moral ideas are?An objective moral value is a value or standard that is binding upon all people, in all places, at all times. It is binding which means that it is a prescription. Because some ( a very miniscule minority ) do not adhere to it or agree with it, does not mean that it is not binding. Just because some people like raping others and thereby go against the law does not mean that that somehow makes the law nonapplicable to them. You are suggesting the necessity of adherence as an indispensable prerequiste for objectivity. This is not the case. It remains objective whehter all agree, whether all disagree, or whether some agree.
So you do not believe in the existence of any objective moral standards. Is that what you are saying?
An objective moral value is a value or standard that is binding upon all people, in all places, at all times. It is binding which means that it is a prescription. Because some ( a very miniscule minority ) do not adhere to it or agree with it, does not mean that it is not binding. Just because some people like raping others and thereby go against the law does not mean that that somehow makes the law nonapplicable to them. You are suggesting the necessity of adherence as an indispensable prerequiste for objectivity. This is not the case. It remains objective whehter all agree, whether all disagree, or whether some agree.
Seems a whole lot like these objective moral standards still lead to subjective morality. I don't see how the term objective applies in that case, nor any practical difference between it and subjective morality. Adding in some imaginary objective moral standards which no one follows completely doesn't really help us understand morality any better.
One thing is for certain. I was when I was a two year old. I was when I was an adolescent. I was myself three minutes ago, and I am right now. This I am has no start or finish. It is a permanent continuum..... Why suggest even for a moment that it ceases upon the destruction of the body? Or for that matter, that it didnt exist prior to this body's existence? Such claims are thoroughly unfounded....
Some say I AM is the mind. They are mistaken. The mind is merely a vehicle for awareness. In actual fact, we are all one being expressing itself as many. Thoughts are manifold, but our being, our SELF is One thing only. A perfect wholeness... So what happens after death? My take is, we return home when we are ready....
Please explain how those are unfounded claims? Seeing as there's no evidence that suggests we existed before we were born, or persist after death, they are quite rational claims.
And where is your evidence to back up this claim?
There is no evidence that suggests we didnt exist. See, this cuts both ways. I already explained how "I am" is a permanent fixture or continuum of awareness, why hitch it to some accidental feature of the body?
Deep within we all know ourselves to be immortal.
Evidence consists of knowing the true Self....
Well, they do have some foundation: none of those indications that prompt us to assume that "I was when I was a two year old. I was when I was an adolescent. I was myself three minutes ago, and I am right now" exist for this everlasting "I AM" that you postulate.One thing is for certain. I was when I was a two year old. I was when I was an adolescent. I was myself three minutes ago, and I am right now. This I am has no start or finish. It is a permanent continuum..... Why suggest even for a moment that it ceases upon the destruction of the body? Or for that matter, that it didnt exist prior to this body's existence? Such claims are thoroughly unfounded....
Yes, but that's a logical fallacy, It's a classic argument from ignorance. Just because there's no evidence that shows we didn't exist, does not in any way give credence to the idea that we did.
You also haven't demonstrated that we are in any way permanent, or any continuum of awareness exists.
I'd love to be immortal, however I have no reason to assume that I am.
No, that's not evidence at all. That's personal experience.
Deep within we all know ourselves to be immortal.
Deep within, I know everything to be in flux. Everything changes, and nothing is permanent, not even one's existence.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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