If when we die....

Elioenai26 · Jun 17, 2012

Good morning to all! I hope everyone is doing well this Sunday morning.

There are sundry views as to man's ultimate destiny when he dies. The question has been a very intriguing question and has occupied much of human thought for many centuries. Great philosophical minds have tried to wrap their minds around the idea of death and come up with some ideas about its implications. All people at one time or another have thought about this and admit to its inevitability. Death, it has been said, is the great equalizer of us all.

I am interested in reading some peoples thoughts and views not only on death, but what they believe happens after death.

AlexBP · Jun 17, 2012

My choice is to believe what Jesus Christ says about life after death, namely that Christ will judge all people of all nations, with the righteous receiving everlasting life, and the unrighteous destruction. I do not believe that the unrighteous suffer for an eternal length of time, as I've seen careful analysis by good scholars that concluded that the Gospels do not support that.

Some will no doubt feel that I am exercising blind faith, and therefore irrational and superstitious. My response is that Jesus has a body of teachings, some of which can be verified and some of which cannot. Teachings such as the command to love one's fellow humans including enemies, to remain morally pure, to turn aside from money, to repay evil with good, and so forth, I can verify and have found to be absolutely reliable. Because Jesus is absolutely reliable on topics that I can verify, I trust Him on things that I can't verify, including eternal life.

Finally, the question is often asked, "If eternal life is true, why doesn't God offer us proof of it rather than requiring that we have faith in it?" My own best guess of the answer is this. When a person crosses through death and enters Heaven, he or she doesn't merely move from one location to another, but changes from into a new type of being. A person in his or her Heavenly body has ways of seeing and knowing that are entirely different from the ways of seeing and knowing we have in our earthly state. Hence it's logically impossible for us in our current state to see and know what Heaven is truly like.

As a rough analogy, a small child entering school for the first time sees and knows the world differently from an educated person. There's no way that the small child can understand what it's truly like to be an educated person. The small child must accept that the goal of education exists without at first understanding what it is; without such acceptance, education will never happen.

Eudaimonist · Jun 17, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
I am interested in reading some peoples thoughts and views not only on death, but what they believe happens after death.

Whatever made you the unique individual that you are is no longer in existence. Whether or not awareness continues in some form is an open question, and very difficult to answer since "you" no longer exist.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Gadarene · Jun 17, 2012

Your brain dies, you go into the ground, that's it.

No evidence that anything more happens than that.

Tinker Grey · Jun 17, 2012

Gadarene said:
Your brain dies, you go into the ground, that's it.

No evidence that anything more happens than that.

^This.

In addition, life goes on without you.

Elioenai26 · Jun 17, 2012

Tinker Grey said:
^This.

In addition, life goes on without you.

Thank you kindly for your input. It is all greatly appreciated. In order that I may more clearly understand your position, you are asserting that life and all it entails i.e. consciousness, feeling, thought, emotion etc. etc. are no longer in existence when the brain dies?

Tinker Grey · Jun 17, 2012

In the OP, you asked what we think happens when we die. I am asserting nothing.

I think that consciousness, feeling, thought, emotion, etc., etc., do not persist beyond brain death.

Why do I think this? This is all we have ever observed. There is no reason to think otherwise.

When someone asserts what cannot be known (or has yet to be demonstrated), the default position is lack of belief. I have seen no evidence that any form of life persists beyond brain death, therefore I lack belief in it.

NailsII · Jun 17, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
There are sundry views as to man's ultimate destiny when he dies. The question has been a very intriguing question and has occupied much of human thought for many centuries. Great philosophical minds have tried to wrap their minds around the idea of death and come up with some ideas about its implications. All people at one time or another have thought about this and admit to its inevitability. Death, it has been said, is the great equalizer of us all.

I am interested in reading some peoples thoughts and views not only on death, but what they believe happens after death.

When we die, our bodies stop metabolising and brain function stops.
All our thoughts, all our experience, and all our cellular matter become food for bacteria, annelids and the like.
The molecules are broken down and become plant food.

AlexBP said:
My choice is to believe what Jesus Christ says about life after death, namely that Christ will judge all people of all nations, with the righteous receiving everlasting life, and the unrighteous destruction. I do not believe that the unrighteous suffer for an eternal length of time, as I've seen careful analysis by good scholars that concluded that the Gospels do not support that.

Even though a convicted murder who repents is granted etenal bliss in heaven with no punishment (save his slow, agonising death on a cross of course).

AlexBP said:
Some will no doubt feel that I am exercising blind faith, and therefore irrational and superstitious. My response is that Jesus has a body of teachings, some of which can be verified and some of which cannot. Teachings such as the command to love one's fellow humans including enemies, to remain morally pure, to turn aside from money, to repay evil with good, and so forth, I can verify and have found to be absolutely reliable. Because Jesus is absolutely reliable on topics that I can verify, I trust Him on things that I can't verify, including eternal life.

It doesn't have to be blind faith, as you are taking the Gospels as an actual factual account of what happened.
The truth is however, this cannot be verified to any degree of certainty, nor is the identity of the authors known. There is chance that some of it was made up (well, more than a chance, there is evidence that some parts of the gospels were added at a later date)

Elioenai26 said:
In order that I may more clearly understand your position, you are asserting that life and all it entails i.e. consciousness, feeling, thought, emotion etc. etc. are no longer in existence when the brain dies?

Why would they live on?
Conciousness is a property of a living brain.
Emotions are regulated by neurochemicals, so if your soul doesn't have a physical brai, how can it have emotions?

It would be so nice if we could live on after our death, but I don't see at as anything more than wishful thinking.

After all, how blissful would eternity in heaven be if yo knew that a loved one had been condemned to hell?

Elioenai26 · Jun 17, 2012

Thanks for the replies. I see from the posts that the majority of atheists/humanists/naturalists generally agree that death is the "end" or the cessation of all life. Kind of like the end of a book if you will. The end is simply the end and nothing more. A meaningless, nothingness is the way some have described it.

It gathers from the above view, that one's main purpose while they are alive would simply be the pursuit of life, liberty, prosperity and happiness. Is this generally how you all feel?

Eudaimonist · Jun 17, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
I see from the posts that the majority of atheists/humanists/naturalists generally agree that death is the "end" or the cessation of all life. Kind of like the end of a book if you will.

Yes, just like the end of a book. Death is the end to the epic adventure that is your life.

It gathers from the above view, that one's main purpose while they are alive would simply be the pursuit of life, liberty, prosperity and happiness. Is this generally how you all feel?

I don't know how you gather that from the finality of death, but it sounds good to me.

I aim at my personal flourishing, and describing that as "life, liberty, prosperity, and happiness" is reasonably accurate. My life as a human being is a self-contained end-in-itself for me, not merely a means or preliminary to some afterlife.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Elioenai26 · Jun 17, 2012

Eudaimonist said:
Yes, just like the end of a book. Death is the end to the epic adventure that is your life.

I don't know how you gather that from the finality of death, but it sounds good to me.

I aim at my personal flourishing, and describing that as "life, liberty, prosperity, and happiness" is reasonably accurate. My life as a human being is a self-contained end-in-itself for me, not merely a means or preliminary to some afterlife.

eudaimonia,

Mark

If death is the final end, if there is no judgment or time for accounting of the things that one has done in this life, then it stands to reason that one should try to live life to the fullest does it not? It seems you agree with me, no? The whole idea of: "hey, whatever floats your boat, do what you feel" kind of attituide would flourish under this view. The idea of: "eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" mentality would obviously be more desirable right? If there is nothing, and if there is no ultimate meaning, then a strong case could be made for saying: "to each his own", right?

Eudaimonist · Jun 17, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
If death is the final end, if there is no judgment or time for accounting of the things that one has done in this life, then it stands to reason that one should try to live life to the fullest does it not?

I am judged every single moment of my life by the law of causality. Actions -- even thoughts -- have consequences. Think of it as natural karma. I am more fully accountable than Christians are, since they only worry about what will happen to them on Judgment Day. Every day is Judgement Day for me.

So, when I speak of living life to the fullest, that doesn't mean some silly shallow hedonism. I mean wise and virtuous living that provides a solid foundation for my well-being. I am an advocate of virtue ethics that in meta-ethical terms is a form of ethical naturalism.

The whole idea of: "hey, whatever floats your boat, do what you feel" kind of attituide would flourish under this view.

Not for me. Doing whatever you feel like is irrational.

The idea of: "eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" mentality would obviously be more desirable right?

No, that would be immensely short-sighted and unwise.

If there is nothing, and if there is no ultimate meaning, then a strong case could be made for saying: "to each his own", right?

You are way off base. My life has plenty of meaning. It just doesn't have "divine" meaning.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Elioenai26 · Jun 17, 2012

Eudaimonist said:
I am judged every single moment of my life by the law of causality. Actions -- even thoughts -- have consequences. Think of it as natural karma. I am more fully accountable than Christians are, since they only worry about what will happen to them on Judgment Day. Every day is Judgement Day for me.

So, when I speak of living life to the fullest, that doesn't mean some silly shallow hedonism. I mean wise and virtuous living that provides a solid foundation for my well-being. I am an advocate of virtue ethics.

Not for me. Doing whatever you feel like is irrational.

No, that would be immensely short-sighted and unwise.

You are way off base. My life has plenty of meaning. It just doesn't have "divine" meaning.

eudaimonia,

Mark

But a case could be made for having that attitude though, right? I mean you have your idea of what a virtuous life is like and endeavor to live it. Others may have their idea of what a life to the fullest would be. Others may think like you, others may not. Would you agree?

Eudaimonist · Jun 17, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
But a case could be made for having that attitude though, right?

A case can be made for anything at all. I'm not sure why I should care about that. I only care about what is true of reality.

I mean you have your idea of what a virtuous life is like and endeavor to live it. Others may have their idea of what a life to the fullest would be. Others may think like you, others may not. Would you agree?

Some people are Christians, others are Hindu, others are Muslims, etc. News at Eleven.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Elioenai26 · Jun 17, 2012

Eudaimonist said:
A case can be made for anything at all. I'm not sure why I should care about that. I only care about what is true of reality.

Some people are Christians, others are Hindu, others are Muslims, etc. News at Eleven.

eudaimonia,

Mark

You say you only care about what is true of reality. The reality of it is that in the end, according to you, there is nothing. No hope, no reward after death for having lived a virtuous life, no expectation of judgment. Nothingness and meaningless is the lot of all. For all die.

For you, living a "virtuous" life, (this must remain completely subjective and open to interpretation by each person by the way) brings you fulfillment. For others living a hedonistic lifestyle would be their choice.

Eudaimonist · Jun 17, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
You say you only care about what is true of reality. The reality of it is that in the end, according to you, there is nothing.

And before that, there is everything. There is the entirety of our lives, which is our very existence.

No hope

No hope for what? I have many hopes.

no reward after death for having lived a virtuous life

But there are rewards during life for living a virtuous life. Why should I care about rewards after death?

no expectation of judgment.

I've already explained to you that every day is a day of judgment for me. I'm not missing out on anything.

Nothingness and meaningless is the lot of all. For all die.

And before that, they live. And life is laden with existence and meaning.

When they are dead, they won't be ghosts crying "Boo hoo! My non-existence has no meaning!" So you are referring to a complete non-issue.

Death is nothing to us, since when we exist there is no death, and when there is death we do not exist.
-- Epicurus

For you, living a "virtuous" life, (this must remain completely subjective and open to interpretation by each person by the way) brings you fulfillment. For others living a hedonistic lifestyle would be their choice.

For you, religion must remain completely subjective and open to interpretation by each person, and that brings the religious person his or her fulfillment. Many theists smuggle in a great deal of hedonism into their lifestyle, which is their choice.

This isn't rocket science. Before you make such claims, ask if they can apply to other groups, including your own.

I will just correct you on one thing. While we all must interpret reality for ourselves, if we are concerned with understanding reality for what it is, that doesn't mean that "anything goes" as far as belief. It is possible to doublecheck one's facts, to examine an issue from different angles, to look to one's life experience and the experiences of others, to consult the wise, etc. And it is the reality of human nature that determines if people flourish or not, so "fulfillment" is not as subjective as you might think.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Gadarene · Jun 17, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
If death is the final end, if there is no judgment or time for accounting of the things that one has done in this life, then it stands to reason that one should try to live life to the fullest does it not? It seems you agree with me, no? The whole idea of: "hey, whatever floats your boat, do what you feel" kind of attituide would flourish under this view. The idea of: "eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" mentality would obviously be more desirable right? If there is nothing, and if there is no ultimate meaning, then a strong case could be made for saying: "to each his own", right?

You know the whole atheists-with-morals-are-being-inconsistent garbage you came up with last thread, that you still haven't apologised for?

This atheists-should-be-hedonists crap is along the same lines.

Again, I strongly advise you to try another line.

Elioenai26 · Jun 17, 2012

Eudaimonist said:
No hope for what? I have many hopes.

But you have no hope after you die.

Eudaimonist said:
But there are rewards during life for living a virtuous life. Why should I care about rewards after death?

You should'nt. According to you, there is nothing after death. That is my point.

Eudaimonist said:
I've already explained to you that every day is a day of judgment for me. I'm not missing out on anything.

You judge yourself. This is what you desire to do. You are entitled to do so.

Eudaimonist said:
When they are dead, they won't be ghosts crying "Boo hoo! My non-existence has no meaning!" So you are referring to a complete non-issue.

You are reaffirming my point. According to you whatever happens to us after we die is a non-issue. All that matters is the here and now.

Death is nothing to us, since when we exist there is no death, and when there is death we do not exist.
-- Epicurus

Eudaimonist said:
For you, religion must remain completely subjective and open to interpretation by each person, and that brings the religious person his or her fulfillment. Many theists smuggle in a great deal of hedonism into their lifestyle, which is their choice.

Christianity teaches that morality comes from God and therefore is not subjective but objective. This means that there are some things that God has forbidden that is true for all people, at all times, and all cultures. This is the Judeo-Christian worldview. Do some who claim adherence to this worldview violate God's commands? Yes they do. But the commands nontheless still exist and make a demand on the adherent. I am not concerned with what other religions teach sir, only with what Christianity teaches, for I am a Christian.

Eudaimonist said:
This isn't rocket science. Before you make such claims, ask if they can apply to other groups, including your own.

Applicability is not the issue. The issue is this: If I believe that nothing is meaningful except the "here and now" and that there is no purpose in life other than to live it the way I want to, then no one can pass judgement on me for living the way I choose. That is all I am saying and I am sure you would agree!

Eudaimonist said:
I will just correct you on one thing. While we all must interpret reality for ourselves, if we are concerned with understanding reality for what it is, that doesn't mean that "anything goes" as far as belief. It is possible to doublecheck one's facts, to examine an issue from different angles, to look to one's life experience and the experiences of others, to consult the wise, etc. And it is the reality of human nature that determines if people flourish or not, so "fulfillment" is not as subjective as you might think.

You are writing a lot but saying very little im afraid. Who are you to tell me what reality is? You must speak for yourself sir, and not for anyone else. You may decide to live by consulting "wise men" and looking at life from "different angles", you have the right to do so, but as a mere man who is nothing more, nor nothing less than I am, you cannot pass judgment on me for living according to way I see the world. I am speaking as one who rejects the belief in any gods or any supernatural force that would impose his arbitray will upon me. I am a free-thinker, an elightened man. I will not bow to the idea of a moral god or gods let alone a mere man such as yourself!

Gadarene · Jun 17, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
But you have no hope after you die.

Yup. So?

Just because you can't handle that notion doesn't mean we can't.

You are writing a lot but saying very little im afraid. Who are you to tell me what reality is? You must speak for yourself sir, and not for anyone else.

Hey, look at that, the guy who keeps telling atheists what to believe can dish it out but can't take it.

You may decide to live by consulting "wise men" and looking at life from "different angles", you have the right to do so, but as a mere man who is nothing more, nor nothing less than I am, you cannot pass judgment on me for living according to way I see the world. I am speaking as one who rejects the belief in any gods or any supernatural force that would impose his arbitray will upon me. I am a free-thinker, an elightened man. I will not bow to the idea of a moral god or gods let alone a mere man such as yourself!

No-one is asking you to bow to them.

Elioenai26 · Jun 17, 2012

Gadarene said:
You know the whole atheists-with-morals-are-being-inconsistent garbage you came up with last thread, that you still haven't apologised for?

This atheists-should-be-hedonists crap is along the same lines.

Again, I strongly advise you to try another line.

Why should I apologize for speaking the way I see it. You would do the same no? If in this life only we have hope of fulfillment, then a hedonist is no less wise than a politician who derives fulfillment from speaking for the people he represents. A rapist is no less honorable than a soldier who dives on a grenade in combat to preserve the life of his comrades. They both are living according to what makes them most happy. One derives satisfaction from degrading and ravishing women, the other from self-sacrifice. In the end they all go to the same place, the grave, to be eaten of maggots and worms, to rot and lie stinking in the earth. The terrorists and the 2,000 plus victims they killed all go to the same place. They all cease to exist, to know, to feel, to love, to think, all is nothing, all is meaningless.

So I say live and let live! Why trouble yourselves witht the petty, imbecilic, childish notions of morality. Why trouble yourself and worry your pretty little head over gods or a god who does not exist to judge you. "EAT AND DRINK FOR TOMORROW WE DIE!"

If when we die....

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