Catherineanne
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- Sep 1, 2004
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Yes. That would be just about all of us, one way or another, one time or another.
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Is it possible to believe, to have true faith, but still have misleading actions?
Then how is faith evidenced by works, if one's works don't necessarily reflect one's faith?Yes. That would be just about all of us, one way or another, one time or another.
Then how is faith evidenced by works, if one's works don't necessarily reflect one's faith?
So someone who doesn't do God's will has yet to be saved?
Every sin is an atrocity in God's eyes so the word would need a definition in your eyes to fully understand your question.Does this mean that those Christians who have committed atrocities over the millennia, aren't really saved?
Is it possible to believe, to have true faith, but still have misleading actions?
... what about Matthew 7:21?
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Yes: it helps me clear, concise, and consistent. But the fact remains that, as I understood it at the time, Matthew 7:21 contradicts the 'faith alone' aspect of most Christianity.Huh?
That is a really hypocritical reading. Do you search your own words when you are telling the truth to try and intentionally create contradictions which are not there?
Why would you assume that?With faith comes deeds. Knowledge is not faith. Satan and the demons of Hell know Jesus is Lord, but they do not trust Jesus. They do not understand Jesus.
Think of it then as "trust".
You don't admit Jesus and look for errors in his words. I assume from reading your posts you think he is actually right on, but have some hang ups because of previous Christians you have met.
For what? For the actions of Christians?I have met many people like this: yet even though they know these things were lies and wrong - wrong because they go against the Jesus of the Gospels - they still blame Jesus for that.
Since I do neither, I'm not sure what your point is.Whatever the case, what others believe or teach about Jesus does not make you right or wrong. It is what you believe and teach about Jesus which matters.
True, but the speaker in Matthew 7:21 is undeniably Jesus, so it's a direct quotation: there's nothing second-hand about it.Why do people feel bound in this way? I do not understand it. If some high school kid comes up to you and tells you President Obama is their best friend, would you believe them... and start taking quotes from them and explanations as if they were telling the truth?
You should take people for their own words and deeds: not secondhand.
So those who are saved will want to do God's will? How do they know what God's will is? How do they know that they're doing God's will, and not some warped misinterpretation?MY FRIEND,
Salvation entails a complete surrender to God's Holy Spirit dwelling within. In essence, freewill becomes God's will and a true Christian--"Christ-like one"--seeks, above all else, to do God's will in all things, at all times, in all situations.
i believe the operant word here is "seeks" because few if any are successful 100% of the time--all of God's children sin. The point is the seeking, the point is the effort, the point is the desire--24/7--to do ONLY those things which please Abba. This is evidence of Salvation--in fact, it is in these characteristics that salvation consists--doctrines and dogmas being largely irrelevant in the process other than to point us in the right direction.
Does this extend to those who bomb abortion clinics, or lynch homosexuals? Retroactive condemnation is all well and good, but how do we recognise people doing God's will in the present day? The Bible can be twisted and torn to support any one of a thousand conflicting views, so it's not much help there.Every sin is an atrocity in God's eyes so the word would need a definition in your eyes to fully understand your question.
However, if you are referring to atrocities such as the Inquisition, witch burning, the Crusades, racism, etc.--the answer is a resounding YES! These actions are impossible to one whose thinking and acting are controlled by the indwelling Holy Spirit of a God Who IS Love.
Does this extend to those who bomb abortion clinics, or lynch homosexuals? Retroactive condemnation is all well and good, but how do we recognise people doing God's will in the present day? The Bible can be twisted and torn to support any one of a thousand conflicting views, so it's not much help there.
Arguably they're sacrificing their own salvation to ensure that others act in a Christ-like way. Bomb the abortion clinics, and no more abortions!If one takes a Bibliocentric point of view, then all sorts of enormities can indeed be justified. However, the Bible does not sanction a Bibliocentric point of view, but a Christocentric one.
With a Christocentric faith, no such behaviour is possible, because the standard is Christ himself, and his behaviour. Christ commands us to love our enemies and do good to those who hurt us. He tells us that only he who is without sin can cast the first stone, and not to judge one another.
If we follow these commandments, then there is absolutely no way we can even contemplate harming anyone for any reason.
Arguably they're sacrificing their own salvation to ensure that others act in a Christ-like way. Bomb the abortion clinics, and no more abortions!
I trust we can all see the staggering amount of flaws in that line of logic, but, sadly, people really do justify their actions like that.
To paraphrase Gandhi, I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians; they're so unlike your Christ.
They would beg to differThat is one way of looking at it, I dare say. But there is nothing of Christ in such behaviour.
Yes: it helps me clear, concise, and consistent. But the fact remains that, as I understood it at the time, Matthew 7:21 contradicts the 'faith alone' aspect of most Christianity.
Why would you assume that?
As it happens, I don't "admit Jesus" because I see no reason to. I don't believe he ever existed, let alone was God incarnate.
For what? For the actions of Christians?
Since I do neither, I'm not sure what your point is.
True, but the speaker in Matthew 7:21 is undeniably Jesus, so it's a direct quotation: there's nothing second-hand about it.
I said I don't believe he existed, not that I don't agree with the words and sayings attributed to him. I may not like 'turn the other cheek, but I rather like 'love thy neighbour'.Oh, well, then, if you do not believe or agree with anything Jesus says, and are against all of that... I don't have anything to say to you.
I don't know of anyone who loves their enemy, but fair enough.I thought you were actually just one of those people burned by a Pharisee "Jesus", raised in a Pharisee household.
Well, then, all I have to say "Jesus is cool with me".
I view the world pretty much as he says it is: people love praise from the lips of people, they like to make little rules and follow them, they want to be treated holier then thou... salt of the earth people are where real people are at. Love, even one's enemies, fighting against hypocrisy, forgiving people as God made them all... sacrifice for others.
Those are the things I stand for and believe in.
Do I?You come and talk about "what Christians do",
What makes you think I judge people?but you live in the free world around Christians of all sorts. They are artists, poets, scientists, philosophers, all sorts.
You watch television and movies and surely listen to music with Christian themes all about.
It isn't going away... what, go back to the dark ages? There are always foreign countries one could go to.
A lot of young Pharisees rebelling against their parents are blinded to these facts because they were raised in believing that those 80% of people who call themselves Christian are all fake. No. Impure, yes.
People are not perfect. I love them in all of their array. I don't bother myself with "enemies" and judging people like you do.
In what way am I stereotyping people?I take you as an individual. And that means, hey, maybe you want to come back and say, "My parents were not super religious like you say". Great. But, you had some bad experiences somewhere and are stereotyping everyone.
How so? I have a number of threads in this forum pertaining to aspect of Christian that I don't understand. This thread pertains to the apparent contradiction between sola fide and Matthew 7:21.But, look around. Just because Christians are not wearing Jesus t-shirts and because they are speaking metaphorically so as to not offend people... doesn't mean they don't think Jesus is alright with them.
I really can't understand anyone who would say that they disagree with what Jesus was saying. For you, you seem focused on the whole "hell" and "unsaved" nonsense which tells me you take stuff from the world and it hurt you... and you are now seeing anyone who is a totally separate person as being that dog which bit you.
Case in point.Well, I ain't that dog that bit you, and I ain't a dog at all... if people want to be prejudiced against me because they view people as parts of groups they hate: be it for religion or politics or the way I dress or the music I listen to or the shows -- I simply do not care.
You call it hypocrisy to judge others, yet you have done nothing but judge me in this entire post. Me? I'm only here to ask questions, get answers.Hypocrites just show what is in their own hearts when they judge people.
Their slander comes against themselves. What is false accusations? Who really believes lying tongues of those who project their own darkness?
I don't, I see right through it.
But, then I am just saying exactly what Jesus is saying right there in the Gospels.
I am not saying you are necessarily like that either. No, in fact, you probably know what I am talking about but are ashamed to admit it.
Quite.For me, I could care less what so-called "friends" say of any group. I stand alone, if people accept me, good. If not, maybe they will one day accept me just for being me, and not because I agree to go through and play their little games... playing little roles like kids.
My door is always open. I never shut it. I don't care if they are the world's worst Pharisee or if they are some drunken thief on the street.
They would beg to differ.
MY BROTHER,So those who are saved will want to do God's will? How do they know what God's will is? How do they know that they're doing God's will, and not some warped misinterpretation?
No "pious" person--meaning one who loves and honors God--would ever involve him/herself in something like the Crusades which involved the breaking of our Lord's command to Love our enemies and to do good to those who stand against us. Acts such as those done during the Crusades are blasphemy and an affront to God whose very nature is Love.Take the Crusades, or the Holocaust: both were done by pious people in the name of the Christian God, but I doubt any modern Christian would say that they were really doing God's will.
Those who "bomb abortion clinics or lynch homosexuals" (either literally or figuratively) are in obvious violation of God's commandments and thus cannot claim that the evil they are involved in is being perpetrated in God's name or with His approval. PERIOD!Does this extend to those who bomb abortion clinics, or lynch homosexuals? Retroactive condemnation is all well and good, but how do we recognise people doing God's will in the present day? The Bible can be twisted and torn to support any one of a thousand conflicting views, so it's not much help there.
I said I don't believe he existed, not that I don't agree with the words and sayings attributed to him. I may not like 'turn the other cheek, but I rather like 'love thy neighbour'.
I don't know of anyone who loves their enemy, but fair enough.
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You call it hypocrisy to judge others, yet you have done nothing but judge me in this entire post. Me? I'm only here to ask questions, get answers.
And how does one discern between people doing God's will, and people doing what they think is God's will (but in fact isn't)?It is the "job" of God's indwelling Holy Spirit to keep Jesus' Disciples--only these are worthy of the name "Christians--informed of God's will and to direct them in carrying that will out. "Warped misinterpretations" are a sign of apostasy, rebellion, and disbelief.
Nonetheless, Hitler, the Nazis, and the German people at large were almost largely Christian (Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic).No "pious" person--meaning one who loves and honors God--would ever involve him/herself in something like the Crusades which involved the breaking of our Lord's command to Love our enemies and to do good to those who stand against us. Acts such as those done during the Crusades are blasphemy and an affront to God whose very nature is Love.
The idea that the Holocaust could have been perpetrated by Christians in the name of a Christian God is ludicrous.
Well, they do claim just that. Just as you have Biblical arguments that condemn their actions, they too have arguments that condone them. the point is that the Bible can be twisted any which way.Throughout both the Old and the New Testaments God's Love for the Jews is stressed and reinterated on almost every page. The Jews are and always have been God's Chosen People and the object of His special affection--even God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ became incarnated as a Jew.
Those who "bomb abortion clinics or lynch homosexuals" (either literally or figuratively) are in obvious violation of God's commandments and thus cannot claim that the evil they are involved in is being perpetrated in God's name or with His approval. PERIOD!
Which is an entirely subjective process which ever self-proclaimed Christian claims to have. How do I, the non-Christian, know which group of self-proclaimed Christians are twisting the Bible, and which aren't?A twisting of the Bible is just that--a twisting of the Bible--and this perversion of God's Word is glaringly obvious to anyone who has gained an understanding of God's Heart by reading it and following its teachings.
I don't. I say I don't believe he existed, not that I know he never existed. I don't believe he existed in the same way I don't believe that, say, a chocolate teapot orbits Mars: I simply don't see any reason to believe.On the last part, it is not so simple. I don't "judge" you in the sense that I dislike you. I view you as created by God and where you are, just as anyone else is where they are.
But, that is not my aim here, I wanted to get at what you really do believe in what Jesus has to say. I find it rude to say "he never existed". How do you know?
The former: turning the other cheek implies alloying people to walk all over you, to get away with all sorts of atrocities. Someone kills your Jewish cousin? You hand over the other one. Someone mugs you for your wallet? You hand over your keys and phone.However, keep that as you may, what I am curious about is what you really think about what he says as recorded by the gospel.
Because if you really are not offended and plow on: you are turning the other cheek. And how does anyone say they do not believe in 'turning the other cheek' is the right way to go? Is that really wise? Do you seriously, what, always seek vengeance for every slight and believe in holding grudges? You do not seem weighted down by grudges.
Turning the other cheek is about letting go. It is about being an immovable object. Why is that not noble? What stings more, to answer back in anger, to seek vengeance? Or to be kind to one's "enemies".
I find it hard to believe that you actually love your enemies, and would actually turn the other cheek.And note how I put enemies there in quotes. What about that? I love my enemies. Why? Because they are not really my enemies. Doesn't mean that I am also butterfly nice. That would be dumb. In fact, some could say I am mean when I am blunt, but truth is being blunt - for instance - is what others won't do.
Would you take that to its extreme, though? Would you abstain from self-defence for the sake of loving one's enemies?How often have you seen people toil through life under some delusion or another just because people who are supposedly their "friends" won't tell them the truth?
The truth is scary stuff. We can try to be diplomatic. But, it is those junctures in our lives or their lives... where it is hard to stand up and tell people what it is and what it is like: regardless of what the crowd thinks.
All that is what Jesus was recorded as speaking about.
Consider: you ever actually help out someone like Jesus said... someone beat up, in trouble, in a difficult spot? They are not always so nice and rewarding back. Quite often far from it. And to take that is loving one's "enemy" and turning the other cheek.
Anytime you give someone a dime - metaphorically speaking - who is of the "enemy" class or group... you are showing love for your enemy. Anytime you are opening your heart to someone you ordinarily are prejudiced against, you are showing love to your enemy.
In my experience, one's religious faith (or lack thereof) has no bearing on your quality of life. Besides, isn't the point of Christianity to spread the Gospel, to get people to believe so that they might have salvation? What do the pleasures and pains of this mortal coil have to do with anything?What expresses nobility greater then what Jesus did, however... speak the truth, get persecuted for it, and eventually give up his life for his friends. I guess some could say "he did not exist" even though many have followed in his example... denying the world, denying what could have been: and embracing the truth. That one can give it all up here, and that is okay, because there is something better.
Your philosophy strongly resembles Buddhism. Have you had any experience with it before?Look at all those who you know for sure are not Christians who did otherwise... what did they get. Nothing. It is meaningless. Food, sex, palaces, money, fame: what does it matter? One will die soon, and then what. And does any of that ever give any pleasure in the heart? It is an illusion of the appetite which grows stronger the more it is fed.
I don't. I say I don't believe he existed, not that I know he never existed. I don't believe he existed in the same way I don't believe that, say, a chocolate teapot orbits Mars: I simply don't see any reason to believe.
The former: turning the other cheek implies alloying people to walk all over you, to get away with all sorts of atrocities. Someone kills your Jewish cousin? You hand over the other one. Someone mugs you for your wallet? You hand over your keys and phone.
I just find it a bad philosophy to live by. I'd rather not cater to my enemies.
I find it hard to believe that you actually love your enemies, and would actually turn the other cheek.
Would you take that to its extreme, though? Would you abstain from self-defence for the sake of loving one's enemies?
I think sentiment in Matthew 5:39 and 5:43 is that you should love everyone, regardless of how they treat you. Treat others as you would have them treat you, not how they actually treat you. The text seems pretty explicit.
In my experience, one's religious faith (or lack thereof) has no bearing on your quality of life. Besides, isn't the point of Christianity to spread the Gospel, to get people to believe so that they might have salvation? What do the pleasures and pains of this mortal coil have to do with anything?
Your philosophy strongly resembles Buddhism. Have you had any experience with it before?
MY BROTHER,And how does one discern between people doing God's will, and people doing what they think is God's will (but in fact isn't)?
Whether or not a person--or a people--are Christian or not is based on their claimed identity but must be evaluated their acts using a criteria such as the above. You seem to forget that the Camps were full of many Christian martyrs who spoke God's Word in the midst of the madness. One well-know example is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who rightly declared, before his own death as a martyr, "Only those who cry out for the Jews may sing Gregorian chant."Nonetheless, Hitler, the Nazis, and the German people at large were almost largely Christian (Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic).
i'm sorry--but there is "NO WAY THE BIBLE CAN BE TWISTED ANY WHICH WAY" without the tell-tale mark of a lie being obvious. It's teachings are clear to all who are honestly seeking clarity of direction from God. There is no ambiguity, only TRUTH. The minds of the "twisters" upon which Satan preys are predisposed to evil and use Scripture to "justify" their evil intent and goals. No one is fooled by this charade--except those who are desperate to be so.Well, they do claim just that. Just as you have Biblical arguments that condemn their actions, they too have arguments that condone them. the point is that the Bible can be twisted any which way.
First you must seek God, then surrender to God and allow Him to take up residence in your heart, and finally just follow directions. So simple a child can do it--in fact, according to our Lord, children do it especially well.Which is an entirely subjective process which ever self-proclaimed Christian claims to have. How do I, the non-Christian, know which group of self-proclaimed Christians are twisting the Bible, and which aren't?
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