• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

If I was aborted, would I have gone to heaven?

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,744
6,301
Erewhon
Visit site
✟1,142,828.00
Faith
Atheist
Oops. Did I torpedo a nice conversation? I didn't mean to challenge you.
We're fine.


I was primarily interested in the rationale of your position and the reasons for your statements. If it is not too much simplification, your position seems to one derived from faith.

As an atheist, however, I can't just say 'faith' for my position and have done with it. If I am going to claim that a fetus is a person, I want a reason ... I need a reason to do so. That's my make up.

Mere human-ness doesn't cut it. A corpse may be human, but there is nothing there of humanity, so to speak. Skin cells have all the information for making a human. Is that sufficient to outlaw scratching? Should then a single cell, a fertilized egg, be considered a person? Why? For what reasons?

Personhood is important, I think, in order to distinguish between a clump of cells worth caring about and another clump of cells not worth caring about.

I think consciousness is important; in this, we agree. I also think that in the absence of a brain, there is no consciousness. The fact that I can't prove that consciousness doesn't exist in the absence of a brain isn't any reason to allow for it any more than absence of evidence of leprechauns is any reason to believe or accept or allow that such things exist.

Beyond consciousness, I don't know what else might constitute a person. Nevertheless, there is a grey scale of consciousness. One might say that a cat is somewhat conscious. But it is likely we agree that a cat is not conscious the way a human is. A certain self-awareness seems necessary to making a person a person.

I am against killing walking/talking humans. I am unwilling to be the judge of whether any breathing human is not a human.

However, I am also against outlawing the pill, which prevents the implantation of the egg to the uterine wall.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
But when is it a soul to god. Not to humans.

What about Psalm 139:16.Christian pro life use this for anti abortion.

I basically want to know where they go after death,miscarried, aborted or even at birth and then suddenly die.

A human soul is composed of human spirit even as a human body is composed of human flesh.
Human spirit died in Adam and Eve. All human beings conceived between human beings become individual human beings at conception inheriting dead human spirit and living human flesh.

God's knowledge of a thing is not contingent upon the existence of a thing. God holds individual human beings accountable for their inherited dead souls (sinful nature).

God knows His creation exhaustively and apart from its existence. God knows His creation necessarily; His knowledge of His creation is not contingent upon the existence of His creation.

An act is triune in nature having intent-affect-effect.
Grace is unmerited favor.
Creation is an act of grace. A non-existent cannot merit its own existence anymore than it can produce it.
Salvation from the inherited death of our souls at conception is also an act of grace.
It is therefore not contingent upon the intent (will) of man but of God.
 
Upvote 0

Upisoft

CEO of a waterfal
Feb 11, 2006
4,885
131
Orbiting the Sun
✟28,277.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Yes. I'd like to think this is a breakthrough in understanding. To be honest, I'm often reluctant to broach this subject because it often produces a "how dare you" kind of reaction.
OK, let's go slower. No more breakthroughs until we finish with this one. So, you think that we are born "bound by sin" and nor free. One would expect the person that is not free will have only one option. i.e. in the food example that would by dying of hunger. So, if there is only one option there should be one outcome. You would expect that everyone would either start believing in God, or staying in the current "bound by sin" state. However if you just look outside you will see that not only people have different beliefs depending on where they were born, but there are even exceptions and few or more people do not share the predominant religion for the region they were born. Thus people are apparently free to accept any religion, but tend to stick to that one that is more represented in the region. How do you explain that? It doesn't look at all like people are "bound by sin", it looks they are not bound at all.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married

I'm not sure how you're using "faith," so let me clarify. I'm not in step with the "faith in spite of the evidence" type of thing. My faith has a reason. Based on the verses we discussed there are 3 reasons why I think as I do (in order of importance):
1) God cares about the unborn
2) God calls me to be responsible for my actions
3) The Bible indicates that a fetus has consciousness

I understand why an atheist doesn't accept that. But understand from my view that there is evidence of fetal consciousness. So, what you're asking for is other evidence, and I'm saying it's highly unlikely you're going to find it.

My position, as it stands, is very definite. You're searching to draw a line in an area that is very grey.

If the fetus is viable, would you agree it is a person? Most seem to accept that argument, but viability is also very grey. A fetus that would survive in the U.S. due to access to good medical care would die in Africa. So is it a person in the U.S. and not a person in Africa?

So, then, what about potential?


Exactly. Argued with enough force, one could even claim the dust of the ground has the potential to be human. With that said, I think the "potential" of a fertilized egg is much different than a corpse or skin cells or dust. It is just difficult to define. Could we say the fertilized egg has been "selected" in some way to realize it's potential?

But might not the responsibility argument actually be the best? You've decided to play at being an adult. Well, then, take the responsibility of being an adult.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
One would expect the person that is not free will have only one option. i.e. in the food example that would by dying of hunger.

Yes.

Thus people are apparently free to accept any religion, but tend to stick to that one that is more represented in the region. How do you explain that? It doesn't look at all like people are "bound by sin", it looks they are not bound at all.

People of other religions are still bound. Only Christ can set you free.

As to choosing the dominant religion of your culture, we were discussing that in the "indoctrination" thread. It is certainly true that there is social pressure to conform. But that doesn't mean all people do. There are people born into Christian families who become atheist and there are people born into atheist families who become Christian. It is possible to change.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
You're trying to get me in trouble.

Who, meeeeeee?

Let's try this one: I can grow a beard that reminds people of Santa Claus.

What can you do that I can't?

Multi-task

I hate to say it, but I'm disappointed. It seems a bit cliche.

I'm a little hurt to be honest. 'Salvation by grace through faith' is cliche, but that isn't an acceptable reason to dismiss it.


I dunno. I don't care for seeing celebrities generally.

If you don't care to know God, do you think he cares about your good deeds? I'm not saying you don't care, but that's the feeling that comes through in your reply.

If you had a prodigal daughter would you care about her? If you were a ghost so she couldn't see you, would you care about her and her life?

It's not as I purposely choose to disbelieve in God.

True. As Lutherans, we embrace sola gratia, sola fide (check my signature). No one has a perfect set of beliefs. That's not what faith is about. As Luther said, "Sin boldly." But that phrase does not condone a flippant behavior toward belief sets.

What is faith?


Your right. I think I listed myself as a seeker for a while. Over time I an losing faith though, and I more or less agnostic now.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I'm a little hurt to be honest. 'Salvation by grace through faith' is cliche, but that isn't an acceptable reason to dismiss it.

I feel bad about that, but I don't know a better way to say it. I could further explain my use of "cliche," but that will make you feel worse, not better.

Maybe I can explain myself this way: Your unbelief came through in your answer. I suppose that shouldn't be surprising, but it didn't seem as carefully considered as other replies you've made. I came away with a subtext that said, "Since I don't believe in God I don't know why I should bother to give that question much thought, so I'll throw this out there."

Maybe I misread your answer.

Your right. I think I listed myself as a seeker for a while. Over time I an losing faith though, and I more or less agnostic now.

Yeah, I guess your atheism is coming through more than I expected. We're going the wrong direction.

If you had a prodigal daughter would you care about her?

Of course. And God cares as well. Note my phrasing. I didn't suggest he doesn't care about you, but rather that he doesn't care about your "good deeds."

It's not as I purposely choose to disbelieve in God.

So is it one big thing that changed your mind or a series of little things?

What is faith?

I'll have to answer that with a conversation rather than a single statement. But, to begin with, we can say it's trusting what God says when the evidence is incomplete.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats

Oh... your probably right so I'll take back what I said. It is rather hard to answer that question of serving God in my position. It does seem a bit irrelevant and so pushed me more towards my liberal point of view. I find it interesting that you got that just from what I said though.

I definitely don't serve God in the same way I did when I went to church, worshipped, prayed, read the Bible, trying to keep the conservative moral law. I probably isn't possible to say that one serves someone they don't know any more. It could be possible to say that I do the moral will of God when I act on Christian principles.

Yeah, I guess your atheism is coming through more than I expected. We're going the wrong direction.

I could go into full on atheist mode if you wanted to see that

I have a bad feeling that there are alot of negative materialistic things I believe but don't want to admit to myself yet.

Of course. And God cares as well. Note my phrasing. I didn't suggest he doesn't care about you, but rather that he doesn't care about your "good deeds."

Doesn't He care about goodness though, and if I act in the interest of goodness then wont He care about me?

You've got me missing Father God now

So is it one big thing that changed your mind or a series of little things?

I don't know if you want detail, but I'm gunna give you a bit. There isn't anyone big thing that happened to me. I think it's a combination of learning various new thing, doing philosophy, and a change in my state of mind for two reasons.

It started with evolution and creationism. I like science and I had always accepted and was good at science. Then I read a book that fooled me into think evolution was a lie for a month or so. Then a friend of mine brought me to my senses as I realised I would be a hypocrite if I rejected evolution but accepted other equally proven and weirder theories. From then on my naive innocence about correctness of Christian doctrine was broken. I was mislead all too easily.

I slowly questioned and doubted parts of Christianity, such as the inerrancy of scripture. I retreated to liberal Christianity to retain my faith, but psychology seems to bring down all personal reasons for belief in God. I even thought I was going to go to hell for a day or two.

I think there are also psychological reasons that allowed me to think as I did also.

You don't have to reply to all of this XD

I'll have to answer that with a conversation rather than a single statement. But, to begin with, we can say it's trusting what God says when the evidence is incomplete.

Similar to what I used to say. When the evidence points but doesn't get to completely.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I find it interesting that you got that just from what I said though.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

I could go into full on atheist mode if you wanted to see that

No thanks. I get enough of that from others. I like the uniqueness of this conversation.

Doesn't He care about goodness though, and if I act in the interest of goodness then wont He care about me?

You should read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's Ethics. It can be a bit confusing since he died before he finished it, so you have to read the unedited version. But, he makes a good case that God doesn't care about good/bad, which must always be a human judgement. What he cares about is whether you do his will or not. So, if you don't know him, you can't do his will and you'll never please him. So, yes, there is a sense in which he wants you to do good, but that "good" is inaccessible until you stop looking for an objective good/bad (which is impossible to find), and starting seeking his will.

IOW, the problem is that even though you think you're trying to do the right thing, you're not because the basis you use is not God's will, but some other standard.

I hope I explained that well.

You've got me missing Father God now

That comment made my day.


I added the numbers to make the conversation easier.

Hmm. #3 is intriguing, but I'd have to know more ... maybe more than you want to share publicly. If so, that's OK.

With respect to #1, I would have to ask why that would invalidate Christianity. What theological issues do you think hang on creation/evolution? I happen to have extensive experience with science, the philosophy of science, and the history of science. Based on that experience I don't find evolution to be a very convincing argument. But, with that said, evolution isn't necessarily a belief that would make or break salvation.

#2 is a big issue. Stepping away from inerrancy opens Pandora's Box. To put it as succinctly as I can, my belief is that if God exists, he'll find a way to communicate with us. If the inerrancy of the Bible is something you're struggling to get past, he'll know that and find some other way to get your attention.
 
Upvote 0

Upisoft

CEO of a waterfal
Feb 11, 2006
4,885
131
Orbiting the Sun
✟28,277.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Well, people of other religions certainly behave similarly to people of your religion. They dismiss all other religions except their own. All say that their religion is the truth. An unbiased observer would not tend to prefer any religion over others. But still this shows people have choice and rich choice between thousands of religions, cults and denominations. It doesn't look at all like the only option in the food example where you only can die from hunger.

You may argue that choosing a religion is not their choice, but who is making the choice instead of them?
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Well, people of other religions certainly behave similarly to people of your religion. They dismiss all other religions except their own. All say that their religion is the truth.

Some do. Some don't. I've had Universalists, Baha'i, and others tell me that all religions are true ... kinda like Cee Lo Green.

Whatever.

An unbiased observer would not tend to prefer any religion over others.

That is a fallacy in your thinking. There is no such thing as an unbiased observer, but if there were, he would try to discern the truth. Once found, he would stick to it. It is not the dismissal of all religion that makes you unbiased.

IMO, being atheist or agnostic is just one of the choices (or non-choices) on the list. They don't stand out as any better than any other false choice.

What does it matter if others claim they are right? It is not their claim alone that determines whether I am right or wrong.

You may argue that choosing a religion is not their choice, but who is making the choice instead of them?

Maybe we didn't have a breakthrough after all. You are still asking the question: If I am bound how do I set myself free?

Let me modify the analogy a bit. "Bound" probably conveys an image somewhat like being tied up with a rope. Let us say, rather, that you are confined to a room, and food is only to be had outside the room.

To choose other religions would be to look about the room and say, "Well, I'm hungry and the only thing I can do is eat what's here in the room." So, people commence to arguing about whether it is more nutrious to eat the rug or the wallpaper. Both fill their belly with something, and therefore abate the feeling of hunger for awhile, but none have fed themselves.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

Poor squirrel XD

No thanks. I get enough of that from others. I like the uniqueness of this conversation.

Fair enough.


I don't agree. I have no interest in an amoral God. I think Gods will is the moral law and that He always wills good. If God willed evil I wouldn't do it. But of course God wouldn't do that. It seem too humanistic to have God egotistically want us to follow His will just because He is big and powerful. The reason to do Gods will should be because it is also the moral thing to do.

That comment made my day.

Glad to help

I added the numbers to make the conversation easier.

Hmm. #3 is intriguing, but I'd have to know more ... maybe more than you want to share publicly. If so, that's OK.

It's ok, its not all that personal. Well for one it was the first time that there wasn't some guy I liked, so I think my mind wasn't distracted by that. I think this allowed me to think about religion in a different, unclouded, way. Also I was expecting to go to university in a year and so I think this freed my mind, knowing that I wouldn't be constrained by my parents beliefs. This let me consider things that my parents might disagree with. Authority has a big affect on me XD It might also be put down to me sympathising with non-Christian characters in a program I was watching.


It's not that evolution invalidates Christianity. One can easily be an evolutionist Christian. It's that I had been wrong so easily and that so many Christians believed something that there was so much evidence against (no offence). I can't be against science. If I could be so wrong about that I could be wrong about other things I assumed. Also I started to see problems in other beliefs. For example, for the first time I understood how disgustingly horrible an eternal hell of pain would be. Any tiny pain would be terrible for eternity.


I started to not be able to accept the explanations for the contradictions in the Bible and immorality commanded by 'God'. Why did the women and children have to be killed? Why did Judas die to different ways? I know the explanation given, those questions are just rhetorical.

I don't think a lack of inerrancy leads to unbelief, but it's just another belief that crumbles. I also started to think about morality by reference to principles rather than I book. No longer would pointing to a book justify why something is an abomination. Even this doesn't disprove Christianity as many priests think in this way. Its just another pillar that fell.

The death blow is psychology in relation to religious experience, healings, changed lives, visions, etc. The only thing that remains in the resurrection. I have to admit that I still believe in some healings and religious experiences though and those three things keep me close to Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I think you've got my whole list of 10 in here, so that makes it difficult to answer any one of them in depth.

It seem too humanistic to have God egotistically want us to follow His will just because He is big and powerful. The reason to do Gods will should be because it is also the moral thing to do.

I think it is the opposite of humanistic. If God must conform to a standard outside himself, we enter an infinite regress. That is, if he didn't make the standard, then how did it come to be? Shouldn't we seek that rather than this kindly old gentleman who calls himself Yahweh? And once we find what made that standard, would we question what made the thing that made the standard? And so on.

So, have you ever been in a confusing moral situation?


There's nothing wrong with a little independent thinking. Around the age of 11 or 12 I decided I wouldn't go to church was I was free of my parents. Interestingly, right about that time, a new pastor showed up in my life who caught my attention. But again, when I left for college I had decided to leave the Lutheran church. The only reason I hung out at the college church was so I could pretend when my parents came to visit. Then I noticed the ratio of girls to guys was much more favorable at church, so I stayed a bit longer. And then yet another new pastor came into my life and caught my attention ... and here I am 30 years later and I actually believe this stuff.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with asking questions. Just be sure that if you're going to apply skepticism to the church that you also apply it to atheism, science, etc.

Proverbs 22:6

One can easily be an evolutionist Christian.

One can hold any number of false ideas and still be a Christian ... except maybe for one - Mark 3:29.

I can't be against science.

Why? Do you think it's more than a human endeavor?

I don't think a lack of inerrancy leads to unbelief, but it's just another belief that crumbles.

This may seem like an odd reply to your comments on inerrancy, but have you ever taken a personality test?
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I think you've got my whole list of 10 in here, so that makes it difficult to answer any one of them in depth.

Sorry XD

What do you mean your whole list of 10?


I don't think God made the law, but I also don't think the law is above God. I think they are the same thing. The same thing could be said on reason. God is the personification of morality and reason. Just as we can't change our natures, God can't change His moral nature.

So, have you ever been in a confusing moral situation?

Nothing springs to mind. Why?


I agree that church is good for friends. I keep considering going for that reason lol.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with asking questions. Just be sure that if you're going to apply skepticism to the church that you also apply it to atheism, science, etc.

I used to say that one should doubt their doubt. My fall from faith didn't happen easily. I fought it all the way. I'm still holding on to the last rope, but I don't think it can take my weight.

I do doubt things in science like many universes. Things that have no or little evidence.

Proverbs 22:6

I'm still a good person at least.

One can hold any number of false ideas and still be a Christian ... except maybe for one - Mark 3:29.

Whatever it mean to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Why? Do you think it's more than a human endeavor?

I'm naturally good at science. I could have been a scientist. I enjoy it and understand it. One of the reasons I rejected creationism is because I realised my commitment to science.

This may seem like an odd reply to your comments on inerrancy, but have you ever taken a personality test?

Yeah. In the Myers Briggs one I'm INFJ. Why?
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
What do you mean your whole list of 10?

Sorry. I was referring to my "top 10" thread, and meant you had touched on almost every possible philosophical issue in just one post.


I'm not sure what you might think our nature is, but I can go with this for the most part. Might we agree then, that God understands the law better than we do?

Nothing springs to mind. Why?

It's basically just a way to support what I said above. So morality has no gray areas? You really need to read Bonhoeffer. He wasn't just a guy who lived in an ivory tower. He was a Lutheran pastor living under Nazi rule. He wrote a few essays about some of the problems he agonized with.

1) Should he obey the Nazi's (Hebrews 13:17) or fight them (Proverbs 17:15)? He chose to fight them.

2) At various times during Nazi rule he was sent away to America and England. Where could he do the most good? There as an ambassador to gather foreign support for the resistance or by returning to Germany to organize the resistance from the inside? He chose to return.

3) The resistance asked for his help to assassinate Hitler. Should he participate or not? He did, and was arrested.

4) The Nazis interrogated him to get information about his fellow conspirators. What should he do? 1) Remain silent even if they tortured him? 2) Lie? 3) Give them what they asked for because they are in authority and it is a sin to lie? He chose to lie.

If his choices seem obviously right or wrong, maybe you need to understand his story better.

I do doubt things in science like many universes. Things that have no or little evidence.

What do you know of the philosophy of science?

Whatever it mean to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

As best I can tell, it means rejecting it.

Yeah. In the Myers Briggs one I'm INFJ. Why?

The Bible is, in many ways, an appeal to the intellect. That is not strictly true. There is the idea of "gospel as story" that claims a more intuitive appeal. Regardless, Christianity also has the idea of sacrament - something that has been played down by the western emphasis on reason. It is the idea that God comes to us through all our senses, not just by reading a book.

In every personality test I've ever taken, I end up at the extreme end of the intellectual. The best way to appeal to me is an intellectual appeal ... 90% of the time. But there is also that 10% of the time when something else will work better. And the epiphanies experienced during that 10% have been crucial to setting the foundation for the 90% that is intellectual.

Am I proud of being so extremely intellectual? Yeah. But it is my tragic flaw, and I recognize that as well. I'm a bit jealous of those who operate more intuitively or more emotivally (emotionally has such a bad connotation). I also respect them a lot.

So, don't take this as an insult. You are obviously very intelligent and very well educated. To be honest, it's a bit embarassing that a middle-aged man such as myself hasn't gathered up enough ammunition to put you to shame. But with that, I have to say (and I would gather from what you said of Myers-Briggs) that you shouldn't dismiss the idea that God is trying to reach you in some other way.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
But when is it a soul to god. Not to humans.

What about Psalm 139:16.christian pro life use this for anti abortion.

I basically want to know where they go after death,miscarried, aborted or even at birth and then suddenly die.

This is a deep theological question. It could be answered with some reasonable background assumptions. It would be very hard to accept any explanation without being religious first. You are agnostic, so I don't expect you would accept ANY explanation given to your question. It will remain to be an unanswerable question as long as you are agnostic.

From a Christian point of view, the answer is: those aborted lives simply go back to Heaven, where they came from. "They" tried, but unfortunately, not succeeded.

To be born and becomes an alive person is an chance (a gateway) to have eternal glory. But, it is only a chance, not a guarantee. Most people won't make it. Nevertheless, this possibility is so attractive and so precious that it is absolutely worthwhile to try.

Hope this would help just a tiny bit.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟43,188.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Sorry. I was referring to my "top 10" thread, and meant you had touched on almost every possible philosophical issue in just one post.

Oh right yeah, sorry XD

I'm not sure what you might think our nature is, but I can go with this for the most part. Might we agree then, that God understands the law better than we do?

I would agree that God knows and follows the law perfectly.


I think situations can be morally grey.


Well I think he did the right thing at every choice. Of course its hard to do when in that situations and I don't know if I would be strong enough to do the right thing.

What do you know of the philosophy of science?

Just basic things like that science never comes to final conclusions. Old theories can be overturned by new evidence, etc.


Being in the rational category is really good though. Although I use my intuition alot I would like to think that it is guided by reason and evidence. You shouldn't feel bad about not being able to 'put me to shame' There are very few people I respect as knowing more about religion than me. I hope that isn't too arrogant XD

I would be happy for God to reach me any way.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I would agree that God knows and follows the law perfectly ...

I think situations can be morally grey.

Even for God?

Well I think he did the right thing at every choice. Of course its hard to do when in that situations and I don't know if I would be strong enough to do the right thing.

Actually, I forgot the very first one that started the ball rolling for Bonhoeffer, which was to leave the state church and take a position with the opposition church - even before Hitler took power. Could he effect a better result inside the establishment or outside it? Anyway ...

I'd probably fail miserably in a situation like that. I'd never claim I could have done better. That's not the point. The point is that for the first few choices one can't really define a right or wrong. Who is to say what would have been better? And for the last choice (the lie), he sinned. From a human perspective I am well aquainted with the fear that would drive the lie. Again, I doubt I would have done better. I'm sure I would have done worse. But that's not the standard. The standard is: don't lie. Bonhoeffer tried to justify his action with the idea that when information will be used for evil, it is not a lie to mislead the evil person. It's a very convincing argument. One I'd like to agree with.

But then look at what Jesus did. Pilate gave him several chances to lie his way out of the crucifixion, and Jesus didn't lie. As much as Bonhoeffer's case might break my heart, technically he shouldn't have lied. And it didn't get him much. They pretty much knew he was lying and in the end they stripped him and hung him with piano wire. Pretty ugly.

Just basic things like that science never comes to final conclusions. Old theories can be overturned by new evidence, etc.

Then you've got some new territory to cover. Newton, Darwin, and the Enlightenment led to a giddy confidence in science. It reached its peak around the time of a guy named Peirce, who put a lot of effort into codifying the "scientific method." But then a series of predictions went bad (I could give you a list if you're interested) and scientists had a crisis of confidence. A new crop came in (names like Duhem & Popper) and challenged the idea of the scientific method. They held that science couldn't prove anything. Rather, the aim of science should be to falsify theories. The big name that came after Popper was Kuhn, but essentially from there everything fragmented into a thousand different directions. Further, people like Einstein started popping up and using non-intuitive theories. That's a summary of 1000s of pages of information in 1 paragraph.

For me, the key question to ask when launching into this conversation is: Can science do anything without making an assumption?
 
Upvote 0

cimbk

Newbie
Jan 14, 2012
305
10
✟556.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
I doubt you ever were a Christian, as this name gets thrown around so gingerly, why even a practicing homosexual pastor can call himself a Christian these days. a real Christian has been born again, I've never met anyone who has been born again and then down the road rejects Jesus as their Savior and Lord.........not saying it couldn't happen, but WOW! what a terrible place to be
 
Upvote 0

Buy Bologna

I don't want to be right. I want to be corrected.
Dec 10, 2011
121
1
Milky way Galaxy
✟22,767.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A christian is someone who believes in christ.

There are 100s denominations from christ and of course each denomination is going to say they are the true christian.

now what have to say about the thread subject?
 
Upvote 0