When God said that it is not good for man to be alone, Adam was alone with God, in paradise, in a sinless relationship.
So I ask you, what was the good that was missing?
Certainly, Adam was not missing any good thing, and God wasn't missing any good thing.
Well, my wife would differ.
The fact is that the "man alone" was not "good" because the creation of mankind was not yet at the stage God wished it to be.
The creation of Eve is something that--whether one wants to take it literally or not--should be studied closely for the symbolism the story also provides. It's not (just) a story of how the female of the species was created, but it tells us what God wants us to understand about the relationship between male and female.
If God wanted us to be perfect, why didn't he just make us that way? Your thoughts?
K
I don´t recall speaking about methods.You asked, "...why didn't he just make us that way [perfect]?" I responded to the question you asked. I'm not saying your premise is correct; I'm saying that your idea of the best method to achieve perfection in mankind apparently not the method God chose.
Correct, it´s only saying that god didn´t want to create us perfect (unless you are assuming that god did something he didn´t want to do).God did not create us perfect, which is not saying that God does not want us perfect.
Does he want us to become perfect by ourselves, or are you saying that god´s creation is still in progress?Scripturally, He has stated that he does want us to become perfect.
I don´t recall postulating that A&E should have been perfect before they had been created.Remembering that "perfect" means "completed," how could anything be "perfect" before it had been created?
I don´t recall speaking about methods.
God did not create man as a completed (perfect) entity. But He does want man to become a completed (perfect) entity.Correct, it´s only saying that god didn´t want to create us perfect (unless you are assuming that god did something he didn´t want to do).
Those two statements are not dipolar, but God does not want us to become complete (perfect) by ourselves, nor is that even possible--only He is complete (perfect) and the only source of completeness (perfection). God's physical creation is no longer in progress.Does he want us to become perfect by ourselves, or are you saying that god´s creation is still in progress?
What did you mean, then, by:I don´t recall postulating that A&E should have been perfect before they had been created.
You seemed to be postulating that there existed a "perfect state of affairs-prior to the act of creation."(Did god, by any chance, find something to be unsatisfactory about the perfect state of affairs - prior to the act of creation?)
Ok - if that´s what you mean when saying "method"...You asked You asked, "...why didn't he just make us that way [perfect]?" His method to was not to simply "make us that way."
Yes, you said that already. In response to which I asked:God did not create man as a completed (perfect) entity. But He does want man to become a completed (perfect) entity.
At what point in time will A&E be perfect, and how is this supposed to come about?
I do understand why - in a world that requires you to learn, grow, develop, improve - learning, growing, developing and improving are required.When I was young, my grandfather taught me how to build a doghouse. He could have just bought me a doghouse...but that would not set me on a path that has (at this point) culminated in me being able to finish my own basement. My grandfather didn't want me just to have a doghouse, he wanted me to be able to do something like finishing my own basement.
Correct. They were the only options I could think of. I forgot to ask if you can think of other options. Sorry.Those two statements are not dipolar,
Yes, that´s what I thought.but God does not want us to become complete (perfect) by ourselves, nor is that even possible--
...but at some point in time his creation will be complete (perfect), as well?only He is complete (perfect) and the only source of completeness (perfection).
So what is it that is still in progress?God's physical creation is no longer in progress.
Yes, I did. I did not, however, say nor mean to imply that A&E existed before they were created.What did you mean, then, by:
You seemed to be postulating that there existed a "perfect state of affairs-prior to the act of creation."
It will add to my understanding of your theology. What I will do with it would depend on what the satisfactory answer is.But now, let me ask you a question: If you get a satisfying answer to your question, what will you do with it?
No, I don´t think so. From where I stand there would be quite a few other inconsistencies to be solved before your theology presents a convincing model.Is this the final question you need answered to become a believer in Christ?
Your dichotomic question implies that everything that doesn´t directly and immediately lead someone to become a "believer in Christ" is "just a trivial pass time". In which case my answer would have to be "yes". However, you added "for you", and "for me" the dichotomy you presented doesn´t apply.Or is this just a trivial pass time for you?
No, I don´t think so. From where I stand there would be quite a few other inconsistencies to be solved before your theology presents a convincing model.
No - that would be putting the cart before the horse, wouldn´t it?Are you seeking to be convinced?
Sure there might be something worth being convinced of...Do you think there might be something you need to be convinced of?
If your God is not capable of making someone/something perfect.... I think it does.This has no bearing on omniscience. And even rocks change.
If your God is not capable of making someone/something perfect.... I think it does.
Ken
I was speaking hypothetically under the assumption that he exist the way you describe. Obviously I don’t believe he exist that way but for the sake of the conversation I am asking you (not God) questions under the assumption that he doesYour own words. Look back. It's exactly what you did.
Talking to God or not is irrelevant. satan wasn't talking to God when he attempted to exalt himself, either. This is a heart condition. You are still claiming to have better ideas than God, which is a heart condition. In this case, it is that God should create at least one thing in this Universe, mankind, incapable of change which is the only way we could have been perfect to begin with.
The closest example to that is Lot's wife, who got turned into a pillar of salt. No, thanks.
Our ability to change is our ability to grow, and is integral to who we are and everything about our existence, including time. It's ok for you to have ideas and to share them, as it is for us to point out they really aren't better even if they may seem so to you. Fairly harmless, really.
Can he create something that is perfect? BTW just because something does not change doesn't make it God; last time I checked, dirt does not change.Omniscience referes to God being all-knowing, God's inability to come to know.
God cannot create something that does not change; that would be tantamount to creating another God, which is nonsense.
Yes, there are things that can be said but cannot be done, even by God.
God cannot change, and God cannot create something that does not change, among other things.
I understand completion is necessary because we are not perfect. My question is; why not just make us perfect? that way nobody has to go to hell, everybody goes to heaven, and completion is not necessaryPut those demands back into context. The perfection--that is, "completion" God expects man to strive for is completion through Him, not through ourselves. This also goes by the concept of "sanctification," which is not so much a matter of morality (acting "good") but of totally dedicating one's entire being to God's purposes.
I'm retired from the Air Force, but my company is a great supporter of the military. The company encourages its military veterans to wear their uniforms on Veteran's Day, and I wear mine. In early October each year, I examine my uniform. I check it carefully to make sure it's still fully functional and in good repair. I will order new parts if any are worn--I may even have to make the three-hour trip to the nearest base to buy some items that can't be ordered.
If you look at the tie closely, you can see that it's not just a plain, blue tie--it has a particular weave pattern that is unique to the Air Force. I make no substitutes for any official Air Force parts, even though none of the civilians at the company would know the difference, and it's unlikely any of the veterans would mention it. But I would know.
When I place my accouterments--ribbons, "brass," and such on the uniform, I do so with measured precision down the the very thread. Again, even though none of the civilians at the company would know the difference, and it's unlikely any of the veterans would mention it, I would know.
And I would never wear the uniform for anything other than an authorized purposes (yes, according to Air Force regulations, wearing it to work on Veterans' Day when requested by my company is an authorized purpose). Nor would I wear any parts of the uniform--not even the tie or the shirt, not even the undershirts--with any civilian attire.
In short, I treat my as uniform is "sanctified" to the Air Force and "holy" for its military purpose. That is what being "perfect" unto God means for a person.
As I mentioned before, my definition of perfect is having the ability and desire to refrain from sinning. Kinda like the one you discribed.You think perfect means automatically not capable of sin. But God's perfection standard is Jesus. One who is willingly obedient to God and so not desiring sin and therefore not capable of it.
can he make something perfect? Or is that logical nonsense as wellWell...God can't do that which is logical nonsense.
As I mentioned before, my definition of perfect is having the ability and desire to refrain from sinning. Kinda like the one you discribed.
K
can he make something perfect? Or is that logical nonsense as well
K
I understand completion is necessary because we are not perfect. My question is; why not just make us perfect? that way nobody has to go to hell, everybody goes to heaven, and completion is not necessary
Ken
We can do that. Jesus proved it.
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