If God loves us, why does he send us to hell?

Timothew · Mar 15, 2012

apocolypticremedy999 said:
however, there is more than one death,

Medical experts disagree with you. There is only one kind of death:

Whatever difficulties there might be in knowing whether death has occurred, it must be kept in mind that there is only one real phenomenon of death. Death is the transition from being a living, mortal organism to being something that, though dead, retains a physical continuity with the once-living organism.
PCBE: Controversies in the Determination of Death (Chapter 2: Terminology)

apocolypticremedy999 · Mar 15, 2012

Timothew said:
I'm not finding "spiritual death" in my bible. Could you point out the verse and which translation you are using?

John said the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal living torture.

This is not what John said the lake of fire is. He said it was the second death.
Revelation 20:14 "The lake of fire is the second death."

OK, now is the time (If my past experiences on CF are any indication) where you get angry at me for not agreeing to eternal torment. Please don't, I've answered you biblically. Eternal torture is not in the bible so I don't see any reason to think God set up an eternal torture pit.

First of all, I don't know why you think I'm getting angry at you for not believing in eternal torment. There's nothing that I said that could indicate anger in my resposnse towards you. I'm really not sure where you got that, for I was simply responding with Biblical proof that eternal torment in hell is factual, but if you don't wanna believe in hell, then don't. I'm not gonna force you, but it is quite important to understand the severity of sin and its consequence if we continue to live therein, esp if we expect to be spared of it ourselves and to save orthers from it, for knowing the consequence of our own evil ways could inspire us in fear to avoid doing what it takes to go there. But honestly, you are entitled to your beliefs, but do know that the truth alone can set you free.

Second, there is really no place in the Bible where it the term "spiritual death" is used, but that's what the second death is, for the first death is physical, but on judgment day, the dead will rise to judgment and the souls of the wicked will be devoured by fire. I consider this spiritual death for it involves spiritual turmoil.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. -Matthew 10:28

Third of all, the lake of fire is eternal burning, just as it is written;

he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." -Revelation 14:10-11

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. -Revelation 20:10

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:15

Again, I'm not getting angry, it's just correction which the wise are instructed to heed that they may become wiser, but a fool hates correction, so think not that I'm getting angry at you, my friend. Take it as you wish and believe what you wish, but I would like to advise you to take these things into consideration, for sometimes when we ignore the severity of the consequences of our actions, we suffer them.

apocolypticremedy999 · Mar 15, 2012

Timothew said:
Medical experts disagree with you. There is only one kind of death:

Whatever difficulties there might be in knowing whether death has occurred, it must be kept in mind that there is only one real phenomenon of death. Death is the transition from being a living, mortal organism to being something that, though dead, retains a physical continuity with the once-living organism.
PCBE: Controversies in the Determination of Death (Chapter 2: Terminology)

You are providing vain technical information based on human knowledge. Such information does not always necessarily correlate with the wisdom that pertains to the things of God. How much do medical experts understand about godly understanding?

Timothew · Mar 16, 2012

apocolypticremedy999 said:
You are providing vain technical information based on human knowledge. Such information does not always necessarily correlate with the wisdom that pertains to the things of God. How much do medical experts understand about godly understanding?

vain?

Since spiritual death is not mentioned in the bible how is "spiritual death" godly understanding? When the bible talks about death, what does it mean? Death means the cessation of life, unless you can show from the bible where the bible says death is something other than the cessation of life.

First of all, I don't know why you think I'm getting angry at you

You aren't. I've been in this discussion a long time with other people who believe in eternal torment, and this is the point in the discussion where they start to get frustrated because of their inability to convince me. When their arguments fail, they try to force me to believe with anger. You haven't done this. This is why wrote: "If my past experiences on CF are any indication".

dollarsbill · Mar 16, 2012

Timothew said:
Because earlier you had been saying that the lost are dead and eternally destroyed and also live alive forever at the same time, while they are dead.

Those who die in their sins will still live forever. They just won't like it.

That can't be right. You must mean "these were dead and NOT alive" and "They will eternally be dead but NOT alive."
I'm so glad I misunderstood what you meant, but if you meant they were both alive and dead AT THE SAME TIME, that would be a contradiction.

Whether you know it or not YOU were dead in your sins, even while you were alive.

Colossians 2:13 (NASB)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Timothew · Mar 16, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Those who die in their sins will still live forever. They just won't like it.

Whether you know it or not YOU were dead in your sins, even while you were alive.

Colossians 2:13 (NASB)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Not literal death, I've never dead a day of my life. Those who die in their sins DO NOT live forever. They die the second death. They are dead, since they are dead, they are not alive. I can't understand why you have such trouble understanding this.

dollarsbill · Mar 16, 2012

Timothew said:
Not literal death, I've never dead a day of my life. Those who die in their sins DO NOT live forever. They die the second death. They are dead, since they are dead, they are not alive. I can't understand why you have such trouble understanding this.

Then what kind of death?

Timothew · Mar 16, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Then what kind of death?

There is only one kind of death. The kind where you you just lay there, not breathing, no heartbeat, no brainwaves, start to smell, decompose, etc.

You know, death.

dollarsbill · Mar 16, 2012

Timothew said:
There is only one kind of death. The kind where you you just lay there, not breathing, no heartbeat, no brainwaves, start to smell, decompose, etc.

You know, death.

That's not what kind of death Paul is referring to that you and I suffered. So then, if not physical, then what kind of death is Paul referring to? It includes you and me.

Colossians 2:13 (NASB)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Timothew · Mar 22, 2012

dollarsbill said:
That's not what kind of death Paul is referring to that you and I suffered. So then, if not physical, then what kind of death is Paul referring to? It includes you and me.

Colossians 2:13 (NASB)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

The regular kind of death. Since Paul believed, as I do, that the wages of sin is death, Those who had unforgiven transgression would be dead in their transgressions. This would occur at the final judgment. "You were dead" refers the fate of those who would die, and they would be dead if it weren't for the salvation from death that they receive from Jesus Christ. This is the resurrection from death.

dollarsbill · Mar 22, 2012

Timothew said:
"You were dead" refers the fate of those who would die, and they would be dead if it weren't for the salvation from death that they receive from Jesus Christ.

"Were dead" is past tense. "Would die" and "would be dead" are future. We were all dead, including you.

Timothew · Mar 22, 2012

dollarsbill said:
"Were dead" is past tense. "Would die" and "would be dead" are future. We were all dead, including you.

OK, you win. I was dead and I'm dead now.

dollarsbill · Mar 22, 2012

Timothew said:
I was dead and I'm dead now.

An interesting comment.

Timothew · Mar 22, 2012

dollarsbill said:
An interesting comment.

anunbeliever · Mar 22, 2012

Armistead14 said:
You thank God for giving people endless torture because they deserve it, why having mercy on some? Would you as a parent that created a child, if that child turned against you, would you have a need to torture it forever for doing so? I know I would never need to torture the children I created because they refused me, yet God who loves more needs to torture his creation... Seems God is no better than Hitler, create a lil sect all to himself why torturing everyone else.

I agree that this concept of God and eternity is sickening. But at least its only one view. What sickens me to my stomach is people who not only believe this of God but take take joy in the thought! Its one thing to say "God is Just. The unsaved will be separated from him for eternity. Whatever their fate we can trust His judgement." Compared with "Sinners deserve to suffer in hell. Thank God that i am one of the few whom God has shown mercy."

apocolypticremedy999 · Mar 22, 2012

anunbeliever said:
I agree that this concept of God and eternity is sickening. But at least its only one view. What sickens me to my stomach is people who not only believe this of God but take take joy in the thought! Its one thing to say "God is Just. The unsaved will be separated from him for eternity. Whatever their fate we can trust His judgement." Compared with "Sinners deserve to suffer in hell. Thank God that i am one of the few whom God has shown mercy."

Well, I don't know who you're speaking for, but I certainly don't take joy in the thought, it is just though.

dollarsbill · Mar 22, 2012

anunbeliever said:
What sickens me to my stomach is people who not only believe this of God but take take joy in the thought!

Whom do you know that 'takes joy in the thought' of sinners in Hell? Anyone here?

loveabounds · Mar 23, 2012

elopez said:
I do not view salvation as a gift we choose for ourselves since that implies man is able to save himself, rather salvation is originated from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We do not have the ability to choose to accept salvation as it is offered of our own will, since through Adam's original sin our human nature has been corrupted as well (Isiah 64:6; Romans 5:12). It is not just our mind that is corrupt but our soul, in that we are enable of coming to faith on our own terms.

With salvation being something that man is unable to merit of his own will, once the Spirit of God comes to change an individual's heart/mind he cannot resist such grace, so if God elects an individual unto salvation he cannot fall from that salvation (John 6:37; 44-45; 65). He cannot resist because the love of God overwhelms the individual so intensely change is inevitable. We can say the drawing of God is based on power but not as to coerce an individual, since the will of man is going to ultimately adore God. Put another way, the effect of such grace is effective enough that it will always produce salvation, meaning that God will not fail at saving whom He pleases.

In my opinion the idea that salvation is our choice is not Biblical, and instead believe in salvation as being God's merciful choice to grant to whom He pleases, as Titus 3:5 states, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

The question is then asked "why would a loving God send people to hell?" First I would question what it even means that God "sends" someone to hell, as the assumption is just pretty vague in the first place. If one is facing eternal punishment then it must be a fair assessment, and so God only plays part in the desicion that one is eternally damned. What God does not play a part of is the actuality of man's sinfulness, for man will sin out of his naturally acquired nature to do so. Man sins because he wants to, and sin separates us from God (Isiah 59:2), so we constitute our own eternal damnation.

So I agree that love is not forced but this is not what God does in order to save man. It is just that the call of God is so effective man cannot help but follow. If God did grant us the choice of salvation, then it would be conditional love above anything else. So in essence you're saying true love is conditional love. Could you support that idea? The idea that God chooses some for salvation irregardless of their sinful actions, on the other hand, means God's love is unconditional, that man is saved by God without any conditions, which I see as the more Biblical view. But again that is just my opinion.

These are Calvinistic views which have twisted exegesis and hermeneutics of Biblical teachings. I pray that people who have read this do not take it at face value, but research Scripture and seek strong Christian counsel to help them find proper perspective.

For God to "choose some for salvation" is anything BUT unconditional love. God is patient with us because His will is that NONE would perish, but come to repentence through Christ (2 Peter 3:9). Furthermore, if God is a god of justice (Isaiah 30:18)...then how is God choosing those who are to be saved and leaving His other creations to suffer the fate of hell....just??? So, either you believe that God is truthful when He says His will is that none shall perish, you believe that God is just or you believe in Calvinism.

And I'll beat you to the punch with Romans 8:29, which has been taken way out of context as justification for the Calvinists belief system. The word "predestined" was to correlate with God knowing His purpose for Christ and that all who believed would be predestined to be saved through the blood of Christ...not that God hand picked those who would be saved.

Salvation IS a gift that we can receive or not.

bottomofsandal · Mar 24, 2012

loveabounds said:
For God to "choose some for salvation" is anything BUT unconditional love. God is patient with us because His will is that NONE would perish, but come to repentence through Christ (2 Peter 3:9). Furthermore, if God is a god of justice (Isaiah 30:18)...then how is God choosing those who are to be saved and leaving His other creations to suffer the fate of hell....just??? So, either you believe that God is truthful when He says His will is that none shall perish, you believe that God is just or you believe in Calvinism.

And I'll beat you to the punch with Romans 8:29, which has been taken way out of context as justification for the Calvinists belief system. The word "predestined" was to correlate with God knowing His purpose for Christ and that all who believed would be predestined to be saved through the blood of Christ...not that God hand picked those who would be saved.

The Bible is full of verses that declare God's choice. It appears you may have taken a cursory glance, and not searched the Scriptures thouroughly. God created some knowing they would end up in hell. Why ? We don't know, but Paul does speak of vessels "fitted for destruction".

As pointed out earlier, Peter is speaking to a select crowd. Who is the "US" that he is speaking to ? It is not up to you or I to decide who words are spoken to. What does justice have to do with God's choice ? Where does God say His love is unconditional ? You are just throwing thoughts around that you believe to be true that are not in The Bible. You think God is obligated to save all men, even though by the outcome it is clear God never intended to save all men.

loveabounds · Mar 24, 2012

bottomofsandal said:
The Bible is full of verses that declare God's choice. It appears you may have taken a cursory glance, and not searched the Scriptures thouroughly. God created some knowing they would end up in hell. Why ? We don't know, but Paul does speak of vessels "fitted for destruction".

As pointed out earlier, Peter is speaking to a select crowd. Who is the "US" that he is speaking to ? It is not up to you or I to decide who words are spoken to. What does justice have to do with God's choice ? Where does God say His love is unconditional ? You are just throwing thoughts around that you believe to be true that are not in The Bible. You think God is obligated to save all men, even though by the outcome it is clear God never intended to save all men.

I'm going to begin my response by asking you to refrain from believing you know what I think or do and most certainly refrain from putting words in my mouth that were never spoken. First of all, I study Scripture every day....not only privately but as part of my schooling as well. If you do not know who the authors are speaking to, then that is your first problem. Scripture will point to who the audience of the authors are, show us what is being addressed and so on.

I never said that God is obligated to save anyone but refer to 2 Peter 3:9 which states, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance".

God is omniscient. Of course He knows who will be saved and who will not. But knowing and selecting or predetermining who will and will not, are two different things.

Anyone who uses critical thinking when reading Scripture can see that God has unconditional love for His creation. For starters, He very well could have wiped out everything He created after the fall of man and start all over. But He didn't. He loves us even though He hates sin, and we are all sinners and instead of destroying us, through His love, and while we were still the thing He hated...sinners....He sent a perfect sacrificial lamb to atone for our sins. How is that NOT unconditional love?

John 3:16 begins by stating "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son...". If you've ever lost a child, you would know how much pain that causes, how resentment and anger could take control. Do you think God enjoyed seeing what was happening to Jesus, what man had resorted to? The very definition of unconditional means without condition or limits. God has more than proven that His love is unconditional love for us. Over and over and over again, it is shown through Scripture that man has sinned and disappointed God. Yet, God continued loving, even through discipline, and loved us unconditionally to the point that His Son suffered and died for us.

God is patient with us, and waits for us to repent. That is unconditional love, especially when considering He has the power to destroy us at the first sign of rebelling against Him.

I fail to see how you can thing that God has anything but unconditional love for us! And I for one thank Him, am grateful for His patience and that unconditional love!!

If God loves us, why does he send us to hell?

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