If god can exist for all eternity, then why not the universe?

Osiris said:

Correct, it hasn't... yet, the singularity which contained all the matter/energy that makes up our universe did in fact exist prior to our universe existing.

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That may be true, depending on which "big bang Theory" you subscribe to.

However, even if the mass did exist prior, it would have taken an outside force for anything to have changed the state of the original mass to become what we currently know as the physical matter of the universe.

The issue is, when a Theory comes to a problem, because a Law says it can not happen that way, the Law wins.

Hope this Helps

God Bless

Key

Key said:

That may be true, depending on which "big bang Theory" you subscribe to.

However, even if the mass did exist prior, it would have taken an outside force for anything to have changed the state of the original mass to become what we currently know as the physical matter of the universe.

The issue is, when a Theory comes to a problem, because a Law says it can not happen that way, the Law wins.

Hope this Helps

God Bless

Key

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That's not really true. "Laws" are really just the really useful mathematical equation bits of theories. They can and do get overturned when their theory gets superceeded by a better one (eg Newton's Laws of Motion by Relativity theories).

ebia said:

That's not really true. "Laws" are really just the really useful mathematical equation bits of theories. They can and do get overturned when their theory gets superceeded by a better one (eg Newton's Laws of Motion by Relativity theories).

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No, Newtons Law of Motion, has not been overturned, that is why it is a LAW.

What you might be thinking about, is Newtons Theory of Universal Gravitation (Which is not the same as Newtons Law of Gravity), being replaced by Einstein Theory of Relativity, as applied to large Galaxy scales.

Hope this Helps you out.\

God Bless

Key

Key said:

No, Newtons Law of Motion, has not been overturned, that is why it is a LAW.

What you might be thinking about, is Newtons Theory of Universal Gravitation (Which is not the same as Newtons Law of Gravity), being replaced by Einstein Theory of Relativity, as applied to large Galaxy scales.

Hope this Helps you out.\

God Bless

Key

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I do mean the Laws of Motion, which turn out to good approximations only (and only then on macroscopic scales).

ebia said:

I do mean the Laws of Motion, which turn out to good approximations only (and only then on macroscopic scales).

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Really.. an object in motion can cease to be in motion with out an outside force affecting it?

Or are you saying that F=ma is not true? That Force in fact does not equal mass multiplied by acceleration?

Or maybe for every action there is not an equal and opposite reaction, that you can indeed have an action with no reaction, or an unequal reaction, IE: Perpetual Motion machines are a reality?

You see, a Law can not, under any circumstances, be wrong, if it is wrong, then it is no longer a law, so you will understand if I demand you provide proof of this claim that the Laws of Motion are approximation, for me to take your statement with anyting more then simple "You have no clue what you are talking about"... and if you are referring to Quantum Physics, spare me, it is a different field of Physics, as such, has different laws applied to it.

God Bless

Key

Key said:

Really.. an object in motion can cease to be in motion with out an outside force affecting it?

Or are you saying that F=ma is not true? That Force in fact does not equal mass multiplied by acceleration?

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Absolutely. It's not 'true'. It's an extremly good approximation on a macroscopic scale and so long as your speeds are relatively low, but that's all it is. I've answered that by way of clarifying my statement. Anymore discussion would definitely be tipping into debating.

ebia said:

Absolutely. It's not 'true'. It's an extremly good approximation on a macroscopic scale and so long as your speeds are relatively low, but that's all it is. I've answered that by way of clarifying my statement. Anymore discussion would definitely be tipping into debating.

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We are not debating, we are discussing, if we are debating, then there would be an issue of me trying to prove you wrong, or vice versa. This is not the case, this is an open share of information, where we are seeking to educate each other, if education on an open platform is debating, then everything is debating.

As to answer your question, when you say "slow speeds" (which is very misleading in it's own right, just to let you know) you do realize that the F=MA is applied, up until the speed of light, after the speed of light, and only AFTER the speed of light has been reached or exceeded, does a different Law apply, however this different law does not apply to speed slower then the speed of light. This is also something you have put fort that is misleading, the Different laws of Motion, as they stand, are not interchangeable, the Rules change after the speed of light has been reached, this does not make either of them "Approximation's" in any way shape or form. It just means that the "rules change".

Funny thing there with Physics, when the rules change, they change on a complete level.

As such, the Law of Motion, F-MA is applied to any and all matter that is moving slower then the speed of light,

Now, Quantum Physics, which deals with the movements of atomic particles move faster then the speed of light, as such, they apply a different (completely different) rule set to them. Hence why it is a different field of Physics. Just as complete Voids and Pure mass have different laws and rules applied them. But the Laws that apply to the Situation, Apply in Whole, not part. And the different laws can not cross the boundaries of their applied field and situation.

As such, this is not approximation, it is that the Laws of Physics change, by scale. What works on one scale, does not work on all scales.

However, when a Theory, and a Law collide, the Law always wins.

The law on the scale that it applies to, can not be broken, if it is broken, then the law is not applied, and removed, and a new law needs to take it's place, or no Law shall exist on that scale for that situation.

Allow me to explain, Galileo's law of Motion F=MV, we incorrect, it looked correct from a limited view , but did not fully apply, hence, the law was replaced by Newtons law of Motion, F=MA, all equations made from or worked from F=MV would then need to be re-worked as they were applied under a false or incorrect Law, and would need to be corrected under the proper and correct law.

Now, the Laws applied to Quantum Physics do not apply to Larger Scale physics, IE: The Laws of Atomics do not apply to the behavior of mass in a macro scale, as such, both Laws are correct, and accurate, and neither is breakable.

This becomes a difficult aspect of Laws for people to grasp, and in the end, it also becomes a difficult concept for people to apply.

This is a common trick or tactic for many supporters of Evolution to try and say that a Theory can overcome a Law, but such can not be true, The Law must support the Theory, or the Theory by default becomes moot. a Theory, can not, under any circumstances, disprove a Law.

Only Evidence can prove or disprove a Law.

And, a Theory, is not Evidence.

I hope I have explained this to you in clear detail.

God Bless

Key

Zocrates said:

What I'm asking is why you have no problem believing that and you have such a hard time believing that the universe existed forever.

Quite simply, we are both saying that one thing has existed forever and I'm asking you why you have a hard time believing one and not the other?

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He just answered that. Because the Bible tells us this, and we believe in God, in God's word and in God's truth. In order for us to believe otherwise, it makes God out to lie, which He does not. We don't have a hard time believing that something can have existed always, it's which things we believe have done this that causes the conflict. Cheers, Digit

Key said:

We are not debating, we are discussing, if we are debating, then there would be an issue of me trying to prove you wrong, or vice versa. This is not the case, this is an open share of information, where we are seeking to educate each other, if education on an open platform is debating, then everything is debating.

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IMO the discussion has become a debate, but either way this forum is explicitely for non-Christians to ask questions, not for us to correct/explore/whatever with each other.

To be honest I feel as soon as someone other than a non-Christian addresses a quesiton to another Christian, it becomes a debate.

Cheers,
Digit

ebia said:

IMO the discussion has become a debate, but either way this forum is explicitely for non-Christians to ask questions, not for us to correct/explore/whatever with each other.

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True on the point that this is not for us to explore, but I do hope that Skaloop will have enjoyed our exchange, as he was making a point before, the rules section that there might be a need to correct the factual data that was put forth by some Christians in this forum, and I hope that as he reads our exchange, that he will come to realize that we will correct each other, if we see that incorrect application of science is being done.

And I have never felt that we were debating, but if you feel that way, then this ceases our discussion.

God Bless

Key

Zocrates said:

Hello All,

I'm new here and while I'm not religious in the least, I do consider myself a very moral human being. I treat others how I believe they would like to be treated. While I didn't grow up with religion, my parents raised me to respect others if I expect the same respect in return.

At any rate, here's my question. I hear often that christians have a hard time imagining that the universe has "just existed for all eternity" but they have no problem at all believing that a god did exist for all eternity. Why is that?

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I think you are confused, what do you believe??? Do you believe that God has always existed and that the universe has always existed, which came first God or the Universe??? Just curious as to what you believe?