If god can exist for all eternity, then why not the universe?

MsAnne · Jul 20, 2007

I accept that I am finite man trying to grasp an infinite God. I learned long ago not to squeeze God into that which I can easily understand.

I know that doesn't answer your question, but it makes perfect sense to me.

HypnoToad · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
Well then if the universe wasn't around forever, then god couldn't be around forever either.

God isn't part of the universe, so the universe not being eternal has no bearing on God being eternal.

All I ask is why would you jump to god, and not leave it alone at the universe just existing?

2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If the universe has been around "forever", it would have reached heat death by now.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

MsAnne said:
I accept that I am finite man trying to grasp an infinite God. I learned long ago not to squeeze God into that which I can easily understand.

I know that doesn't answer your question, but it makes perfect sense to me.

All I got from that is that you don't understand your god and the things it does. And because it's impossible to understand the things that your god does, you will never try and understand the things in this world that don't exactly make sense to you right now.

Think about how far we would be as a species if humans carried this attitude with them. You certainly wouldn't have a computer to discuss any of this had a man not bothered to discover something he didn't understand at one point.

I have to say that this is one aspect of christianity that is counter-productive to me. If we're supposed to better ourselves and learn new cures to diseases and improve our way of life, we're going to have to ask the tough questions and dig deep to find answers to things we don't know.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

XianJedi said:
God isn't part of the universe, so the universe not being eternal has no bearing on God being eternal.

2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If the universe has been around "forever", it would have reached heat death by now.

Like I said before, we don't currently know anything about the origin of the universe. We have scientific laws and theories and even religious theories. No one knows for sure at the moment.

So...

Why is do you think your theory is more probable than anyone else's? Why do you need no evidence whatsoever for god, but you need evidence to prove that the universe was here forever? Why is there no consistency?

HypnoToad · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
Why is do you think your theory is more probable than anyone else's?

Is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics a reasonable theory or not? If not, state why, otherwise the theory DOES leave us at the conclusion I already posted - if the universe existed "forever", it would have already reached heat death by now.

Why do you need no evidence whatsoever for god, but you need evidence to prove that the universe was here forever? Why is there no consistency?

What do you mean "no evidence"? You are asking about God existing forever and the universe existing forever. One has no bearing on the other, the universe is physical, subject to physical laws. God is not physical and is, therefore, not subject to physical laws. This is a logic exercise, not an evidence exercise.

five · Jul 20, 2007

ebia said:
We know from science as well as faith that the universe has not existed "for all eternity". Why would one want to imagine that it had?

no, we know from science that the universe has not existed in this state for all eternity. For all we know we are part of a larger system still. The universe we are a part of is expanding, and was, at one point, very small. If the universe is infinite in size, and we reduce it an arbitrary amount, it is still infinite. We don't know the "real" size of the universe, the visible universe (an important distinction) is something like 46 bn. ly. across.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

XianJedi said:
This is a logic exercise, not an evidence exercise.

I thought this was a question of faith, not logic. but if you want to discuss logic, I could endulge.

You say that your god is supernatural, which implies being above the natural world. Well, the only possible things we can know exist in the natural world. So how can we possibly know of something (god) that is supernatural? Wouldn't this supernatural thing then become...natural?

By the way, "five" made a good point. I would like to see your response to it.

HypnoToad · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
I thought this was a question of faith, not logic. but if you want to discuss logic, I could endulge.

You say that your god is supernatural, which implies being above the natural world. Well, the only possible things we can know exist in the natural world. So how can we possibly know of something (god) that is supernatural?

I don't have to provide any such evidence - God's existence is already presumed by your OP.

By the way, "five" made a good point. I would like to see your response to it.

I don't see how it's a "good point" until he actually provides evidence instead of just offering up guesses.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

XianJedi said:
I don't have to provide any such evidence - God's existence is already presumed by your OP.

By OP, do you mean original post?

Yes, I did presume to offer this question originally by presuming god's existence, but you turned it around when you wanted to bring logic into the picture.

You cannot hold a conversation if you want to use logic only when it's convenient. Consistency is needed to get somewhere evenatually.

The only reason I brought up the supernatural question was because you said:

This is a logic exercise, not an evidence exercise.

I don't see how it's a "good point" until he actually provides evidence instead of just offering up guesses.

I do believe you have made several claims as well without offering up any evidence. I didn't require any of you thus far, why would you require any of "five"?

I don't think either of you need any evidence because it's all speculation anyway. We don't know if the universe had a beginning for sure right now. It is christians' assumption (or faith) that it did have a beginning. Others believe that it didn't. My question (which is still unanswered) is why have faith in one and not the other?

MsAnne · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
All I got from that is that you don't understand your god and the things it does. And because it's impossible to understand the things that your god does, you will never try and understand the things in this world that don't exactly make sense to you right now.

Think about how far we would be as a species if humans carried this attitude with them. You certainly wouldn't have a computer to discuss any of this had a man not bothered to discover something he didn't understand at one point.

I have to say that this is one aspect of christianity that is counter-productive to me. If we're supposed to better ourselves and learn new cures to diseases and improve our way of life, we're going to have to ask the tough questions and dig deep to find answers to things we don't know.

Wow, you got all that from my post.
And since that is how you've interpreted my entire belief, I will wish you a good day, and go on to other things in my day more productive.

Key · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
Thank you for your greeting and your response.

So, are you proposing is that god created the universe 13.4 billion years ago?

Well, as far as our best guess Goes, that is how Old the Mass in the Universe is, as such, I am left with no other possibilities, but to conclude that it was a result of Gods divine intervention that what currently exists.. exists.

Now the Void that our Physical world is in (IE: the Void of Space) may have always been, but, even if it has, that would be an irrelevant issue, because a void is just that, a stasis in itself, as there is nothing in a void, as such, the passing of time has no bearing, IE: the Third Law of Thermodynamics.

As to your other questions about God being natural, and bound by the laws of the Physical world, this is logical fault, as God had to exist beyond and unaffected by the laws of the physical world, to have been able to make the physical world before the physical world existed. As such, things like the Laws of Thermodynamics, would not apply to God, neither would any of the Laws of Physics, as it would have been God himself that wrote these laws for "this" little playground to function by.

See, God in his existence, is beyond our "reality" but equally so, can affect our reality, as he has proven that much, by Making the Reality that we know. What rules that may or may not govern Gods actions, we do not know, as it is beyond our limited scope to grasp them, as they are beyond the limitations of our physical world.

Let me give you an example, if I put mass in a Void, it would need to be placed there, but, What put the mass in the void could not be bound by the void, as if it was bound by the void, then the void was not void to start with, it had within it, the originator, however, for there to be an originator, it had to exist beyond the limitations of the Void, but equally so, have the ability to affect the void.

Does this help you at all?

God Bless

Key

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

MsAnne said:
Wow, you got all that from my post.
And since that is how you've interpreted my entire belief, I will wish you a good day, and go on to other things in my day more productive.

My apologies for misinterpreting your post, but I would be more than happy to listen if you'll clarify for me.

R3quiem · Jul 20, 2007

Modern science believes that both space and time were created when the Big Bang happened. So, before that event, neither space nor time existed.

It's impossible for a human to imagine what "time not existing" would be like. We were born in time, are subject to it, and live out our lives under the influence of time. Our memories are chronologic, our thought patterns too.

God however, created the very idea of time and space. He himself is not subject to it. So when God exists for eternity, it's not that he goes through time just like us but has been here for a LOOOONG time, it's just that he lives OUTSIDE of the boundaries of time. He is not under its effect.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

Key said:
Well, as far as our best guess Goes, that is how Old the Mass in the Universe is, as such, I am left with no other possibilities, but to conclude that it was a result of Gods divine intervention that what currently exists.. exists.

So because we have no clue whatsoever existed before (what we know as) our universe, you have subscribed to god being the cause (and somehow, some way existing forever), rather than proposing that the universe has (somehow, some way) existed forever. Why the former and not the latter, when BOTH are just as up in the air?

As to your other questions about God being natural, and bound by the laws of the Physical world, this is logical fault, as God had to exist beyond and unaffected by the laws of the physical world, to have been able to make the physical world before the physical world existed. As such, things like the Laws of Thermodynamics, would not apply to God, neither would any of the Laws of Physics, as it would have been God himself that wrote these laws for "this" little playground to function by.

You've missed my point in bringing up god being supernatural. I was merely bringing it up to endulge XianJedi with a logical debate. I don't wish to get any further into it because I want to focus on the topic of the thread. Though I'd love to discuss this topic further if you so desire.

ebia · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
Actually we don't know from science that the universe hasn't existed for all eternity, we don't know that it did either. There's only speculation at this point.

And it is my understanding that the bible hasn't been proven to be the word of god either, so you take it all on faith.

My question is why take that a god has existed for all eternity on faith, but not the universe itself?

I stand by my previous answer. Science and the bible both agree that the Universe had a beginning. If you want to debate that, then you've chosen the wrong forum.

So because we have no clue whatsoever existed before (what we know as) our universe,

There is no "before". Time is part of the universe.

You've missed my point in bringing up god being supernatural. I was merely bringing it up to endulge XianJedi with a logical debate

Debate is not allowed in this forum. This is a question & answer forum.

Key · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
So because we have no clue whatsoever existed before (what we know as) our universe, you have subscribed to god being the cause (and somehow, some way existing forever), rather than proposing that the universe has (somehow, some way) existed forever. Why the former and not the latter, when BOTH are just as up in the air?

No.

Physical matter abides by laws, motion, thermodynamics, relativity, gravity, etc... blah.. blah.. which encompass the vast "Laws of Physics"

Matter, abides by these laws, (weather we like them to or not), as such, the matter, as per the laws of physics, could not have always been.

This equally generates logical faults as well.. for a simple example..

Currently matter is moving apart from each other, the "Matter" in the universe is "expanding to fill the void"

Now, if the matter matter in the universe was "infinity" old, then it would be infinity distance apart from each other, which is a fun logical fault in and of itself, and we know as per the law of Relativity, that this is not true.

Secondly, the Second law of Thermodynamics states that heat will transfer from one medium to another, until both mediums are the same temperature, hot will transfer to cold, and thus loose it's heat, as it warms up the cold medium.

If the universe was infinitely old, then it would all be a homogenized temperature, which it is not, another fun fault in the plan.

Given just this limited amount of data, based on factual Laws of Physics, the Theory of an Infinitely old Universe, simply can not be.

There are many other Logical faults as well, but this is just a few of them, when we come to try and grasp time and the passing of it, in many ways, this is the means by which we gauge the passing of vast amounts of time, that we could not just measure by other means IE: The age of the earth, the age of the sun, etc.

So this is a lot more then simple "One is as good as another" there is a date stamp on the mass of the Universe, that much, we know as fact. It has not "Always Been"

Now, when it comes to God, you can look at it as "has always been" or you can look at it as "Plays by different rules".

Either one can work.

But Physical matter, does not get an allowance to play by different rules.

You've missed my point in bringing up god being supernatural. I was merely bringing it up to endulge XianJedi with a logical debate. I don't wish to get any further into it because I want to focus on the topic of the thread. Though I'd love to discuss this topic further if you so desire.

Fair enough, but you are allowed to and deeper questions regarding what your initial question was, I assumed this was such, however, that aside, have I given you thoughts to ponder?

God Bless

Key

HypnoToad · Jul 21, 2007

Zocrates said:
I didn't require any of you thus far, why would you require any of "five"?

Because logic DOES indicate that the universe is not eternal.

I don't think either of you need any evidence because it's all speculation anyway. We don't know if the universe had a beginning for sure right now. It is christians' assumption (or faith) that it did have a beginning. Others believe that it didn't. My question (which is still unanswered) is why have faith in one and not the other?

Because logic does suggest that a non-physical being is not subject to physical laws, while a physical universe IS subject to physical laws. Given that, it is much more reasonable to accept that a spiritual entity can exist forever, while the physical does not.

Osiris · Jul 21, 2007

... delete, posted in the wrong forum.

Osiris · Jul 21, 2007

Markus6 said:
The big bang theory says that the universe and time started (something like) 13.4 billion years ago. The universe as we know it has not been around forever.

Correct, it hasn't... yet, the singularity which contained all the matter/energy that makes up our universe did in fact exist prior to our universe existing.

gmd · Jul 21, 2007

I can look at the universe and where we are situated in that universe; sitting in a perfect orbit not to close or to far from the sun and where other planets absorb many of the huge meteorites that fly through our solar system. I see a complexity and beauty that I cannot imagine happened by accident or simply formed out of a vacuum or void by itself. when you look at a car or skyscraper or your computer you know they had a beginning. That is the way i look at the universe and the Creator. I will pray for your enlightenment

If god can exist for all eternity, then why not the universe?

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