If god can exist for all eternity, then why not the universe?

Zocrates · Jul 19, 2007

Hello All,

I'm new here and while I'm not religious in the least, I do consider myself a very moral human being. I treat others how I believe they would like to be treated. While I didn't grow up with religion, my parents raised me to respect others if I expect the same respect in return.

At any rate, here's my question. I hear often that christians have a hard time imagining that the universe has "just existed for all eternity" but they have no problem at all believing that a god did exist for all eternity. Why is that?

ebia · Jul 19, 2007

We know from science as well as faith that the universe has not existed "for all eternity". Why would one want to imagine that it had?

Yekcidmij · Jul 19, 2007

ebia said:
We know from science as well as faith that the universe has not existed "for all eternity". Why would one want to imagine that it had?

Evidence indicates the universe had a beginning.

Sketcher · Jul 19, 2007

Actually, God's eternity is one of the hardest things for us to grasp. However, for anything to exist, there must be something or someone that never began, but always was. But to answer your question more directly, the universe is created and God is the creator. Since the universe is created, then it had a beginning. Since God is the Creator of all things, He had no beginning.

Key · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
At any rate, here's my question. I hear often that christians have a hard time imagining that the universe has "just existed for all eternity" but they have no problem at all believing that a god did exist for all eternity. Why is that?

Hello and welcome to CF, given this is your first post, I hope you enjoy your time here.

Now to answer your question, well, the simple reality of it is that the evidence says otherwise.

Also, it generates a logical paradox, but that is a whole other story which I will not get into.

But, as per all the people with means of measurements and stuff, the universe is 13.4 billion years old.

It's old, I'll give you that, but it ain't eternally old.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Key

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

ebia said:
We know from science as well as faith that the universe has not existed "for all eternity". Why would one want to imagine that it had?

Actually we don't know from science that the universe hasn't existed for all eternity, we don't know that it did either. There's only speculation at this point.

And it is my understanding that the bible hasn't been proven to be the word of god either, so you take it all on faith.

My question is why take that a god has existed for all eternity on faith, but not the universe itself?

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

Yekcidmij said:
Evidence indicates the universe had a beginning.

What evidence is this?

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

Key said:
Hello and welcome to CF, given this is your first post, I hope you enjoy your time here.

Now to answer your question, well, the simple reality of it is that the evidence says otherwise.

Also, it generates a logical paradox, but that is a whole other story which I will not get into.

But, as per all the people with means of measurements and stuff, the universe is 13.4 billion years old.

It's old, I'll give you that, but it ain't eternally old.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Key

Thank you for your greeting and your response.

So, are you proposing is that god created the universe 13.4 billion years ago?

MichaelFJF · Jul 20, 2007

Your question has to do with time. God created time. He is outside time. Therefore He can exist without beginning or end, and anything He creates can last as long as He wants it to.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

twistedsketch said:
Actually, God's eternity is one of the hardest things for us to grasp. However, for anything to exist, there must be something or someone that never began, but always was. But to answer your question more directly, the universe is created and God is the creator. Since the universe is created, then it had a beginning. Since God is the Creator of all things, He had no beginning.

Your whole assumption lies in that the universe was created. If you don't believe that the universe was created, then it doesn't need a creator, ergo no god.

What I am asking is why do you believe that god was not created, but that the universe was? Why is it so easy to accept that god has just existed for all time, but not the universe?

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

MichaelFJF said:
Your question has to do with time. God created time. He is outside time. Therefore He can exist without beginning or end, and anything He creates can last as long as He wants it to.

You have no problem imagining that there is a being that is "outside of time" and has existed forever, but you can't just give the universe these same characteristics? Why is it that the universe itself could not have existed forever? Why enter god into the picture?

MichaelFJF · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
You have no problem imagining that there is a being that is "outside of time" and has existed forever, but you can't just give the universe these same characteristics? Why is it that the universe itself could not have existed forever? Why enter god into the picture?

LOL - well, because God enters into all my pictures.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

MichaelFJF said:
LOL - well, because God enters into all my pictures.

Sorry, I'll leave out the last part so you can focus on my question.

You have no problem imagining that there is a being that is "outside of time" and has existed forever, but you can't just give the universe these same characteristics? Why is it that the universe itself could not have existed forever?

Sketcher · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
What I am asking is why do you believe that god was not created, but that the universe was? Why is it so easy to accept that god has just existed for all time, but not the universe?

Because God is the Creator and the universe is the creation. This is what the Bible tells me in Genesis 1.

Markus6 · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
You have no problem imagining that there is a being that is "outside of time" and has existed forever, but you can't just give the universe these same characteristics? Why is it that the universe itself could not have existed forever? Why enter god into the picture?

Because the universe doesn't look like it has existed forever. Because of the fact that everything (stars and galaxies) is flying away from earth our best current guess is that the universe as we know it started with the big bang.

The universe is not "outside of time", time is an inseperable property of the universe. As Einstein discovered matter effects time (the space-time continuum). In the big bang with all of the matter in the universe squished into a small space time would slow to a stop. The big bang is the start of time.

No one knows what happened before the big bang. Scientists have some ideas but they are still in the realm of theoretical physics - they don't have any real proof but just make the equations work. All these theories suggest the existence of things outside of our universe that are therefore not constrained by time in this universe. I guess you could say that God is a similar theory.

As to WHY enter God into the picture - well I doubt you'll find many christians who say they believe in God because of pondering the theoretical physics of the origin of reality. Most christians believe in God for different reasons (personal experience, miracles, beauty in the world etc.) and once you believe in him it is natural to think he is the creator of the universe.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

twistedsketch said:
Because God is the Creator and the universe is the creation. This is what the Bible tells me in Genesis 1.

I think you have missed what I'm asking you.

Of course I know what it is you believe. It's no secret that christians believe that your god is the creator of the universe as told in the bible.

What I'm asking is why you have no problem believing that and you have such a hard time believing that the universe existed forever.

Quite simply, we are both saying that one thing has existed forever and I'm asking you why you have a hard time believing one and not the other?

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

Markus6 said:
Because the universe doesn't look like it has existed forever. Because of the fact that everything (stars and galaxies) is flying away from earth our best current guess is that the universe as we know it started with the big bang.

The universe is not "outside of time", time is an inseperable property of the universe. As Einstein discovered matter effects time (the space-time continuum). In the big bang with all of the matter in the universe squished into a small space time would slow to a stop. The big bang is the start of time.

No one knows what happened before the big bang. Scientists have some ideas but they are still in the realm of theoretical physics - they don't have any real proof but just make the equations work. All these theories suggest the existence of things outside of our universe that are therefore not constrained by time in this universe. I guess you could say that God is a similar theory.

As to WHY enter God into the picture - well I doubt you'll find many christians who say they believe in God because of pondering the theoretical physics of the origin of reality. Most christians believe in God for different reasons (personal experience, miracles, beauty in the world etc.) and once you believe in him it is natural to think he is the creator of the universe.

Understandable. So you're saying that scientists know a lot about the universe, but they don't know everything and I would agree with you. Basically they have no proof for the universe existing forever, but then again, there is no proof for god existing forever either.

So, we're back to my original question. Since there is no evidence for either, why is it easier to believe that a god created it rather than just leaving it at the universe has just been here forever?

Markus6 · Jul 20, 2007

Zocrates said:
Understandable. So you're saying that scientists know a lot about the universe, but they don't know everything and I would agree with you. Basically they have no proof for the universe existing forever, but then again, there is no proof for god existing forever either.

So, we're back to my original question. Since there is no evidence for either, why is it easier to believe that a god created it rather than just leaving it at the universe has just been here forever?

The big bang theory says that the universe and time started (something like) 13.4 billion years ago. The universe as we know it has not been around forever.

I don't think there is a scientific reason why it is easier to believe in God. I just do, and my atheist friends just don't. We all have our reasons and they aren't scientific.

Zocrates · Jul 20, 2007

Markus6 said:
The big bang theory says that the universe and time started (something like) 13.4 billion years ago. The universe as we know it has not been around forever.

Well then if the universe wasn't around forever, then god couldn't be around forever either. Just because we don't know what happened before the big bang doesn't mean there wasn't some sort of "pre-universe". The truth is, we don't know. All we have an idea about right now is that this universe probably started 13.4 billion years ago, but there could have very well been something before then that could have had nothing to do with a deity. Most of us, just like when early man didn't know something, attribute the gap in information to a god.

All I ask is why would you jump to god, and not leave it alone at the universe just existing?

thinkfreelivefree · Jul 20, 2007

I would like to add but I've been told that answering in this forum is only for christians.

If god can exist for all eternity, then why not the universe?

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