If Calvinism was true, no-one would go to hell

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If Calvinism was correct, every single person on Earth would go to heaven. Here's the reasoning behind my claim:

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Calvinism teaches that going to heaven is only based on God's will, not on our own will.

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So if God chooses who goes to heaven according to his will, and he is not willing that any should perish (as taught in 2 Peter 3:9), then the logical conclusion is that everyone goes to heaven. The will of God is that the whole world would be saved.

But everyone knows that according to the Bible everyone is not going to heaven. Therefore Calvinism must be false.

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Unless Peter was actually addressing the recipients of his letter (what a concept!), who were Christians, and who were concerned why Christ had not yet come back again, and Peter was explaining that God was waiting for all the elect to come in, not wishing that any (of the elect) would perish if Christ returned before they had come to faith.

And lo and behold! That is precisely to whom Peter was speaking:

"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone (of you) to perish."

With all the calvinist hate on this forum, it would make me think there are more arminianists than calvinists in the world. It seems like every other day there is a new thread about why calvinism is false.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If Calvinism was correct, every single person on Earth would go to heaven. Here's the reasoning behind my claim:

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Calvinism teaches that going to heaven is only based on God's will, not on our own will. So if God chooses who goes to heaven according to his will, and he is not willing that any should perish (as taught in 2 Peter 3:9), then the logical conclusion is that everyone goes to heaven. The will of God is that the whole world would be saved.

But everyone knows that according to the Bible everyone is not going to heaven. Therefore Calvinism must be false.

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What you should have said was that if Calvinism were true, and your understanding of that verse was correct, all would be saved. However, your understanding of that verse isn’t correct.

But thanks for playing.

Lifelong_sinner said:

With all the calvinist hate on this forum, it would make me think there are more arminianists than calvinists in the world. It seems like every other day there is a new thread about why calvinism is false.

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Been that way since I’ve been here. Heck, I even started some back in the day.

Lifelong_sinner said:

With all the calvinist hate on this forum, it would make me think there are more arminianists than calvinists in the world. It seems like every other day there is a new thread about why calvinism is false.

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I'm sure there's plenty of anti-free will posts in the Semper Reformada forum. I just don't frequent it because I don't identify as reformed...or a calvinist...or an Armenian for that matter.

spiritfilledjm said:

I'm sure there's plenty of anti-free will posts in the Semper Reformada forum. I just don't frequent it because I don't identify as reformed...or a calvinist...or an Armenian for that matter.

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Not too much. And we aren’t anti-free will.

Hammster said:

Not too much. And we aren’t anti-free will.

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I just said it like that because I knew I wouldn't spell arminian right...which I tried to do anyways and think I failed miserably idk.

Lifelong_sinner said:

With all the calvinist hate on this forum, it would make me think there are more arminianists than calvinists in the world.

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There are more non-Calvinists than Calvinists; the combined size of the Lutheran, Evangelical, and Methodist churches is substantially more, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are 3.5 times more numerous, and there are 12 Roman Catholics per Calvinist. I say this as a presbyter in a historically Calvinist tradition (Congregational), but I have moved on to a more Wesleyan-Orthodox model, although some interpretations of Calvinism @hedrick has shared with us, which were one of the better things I saw when in the UCC, I rather like, but ultimately, I am not a monergist (meaning I don’t believe in Pelagianism, Universalism or Calvinism, because I believe our salvation entails cooperation with and ultimately, participation in, the uncreated grace of God. Palamism, which is still obscure in the West, is so much more compelling a soteriology.

Now, this may sound like pedantry, but I would argue the only true Arminians are members of the Remonstrant Church that he founded. And it still survives, with around 5,000 members, and unfortunately has become very theologically liberal, like the Waldensian Church and the Moravian Church and the Episcopal Church and the United Church of Christ, and the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If Calvinism was correct, every single person on Earth would go to heaven. Here's the reasoning behind my claim:

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Calvinism teaches that going to heaven is only based on God's will, not on our own will. So if God chooses who goes to heaven according to his will, and he is not willing that any should perish (as taught in 2 Peter 3:9), then the logical conclusion is that everyone goes to heaven. The will of God is that the whole world would be saved.

But everyone knows that according to the Bible everyone is not going to heaven. Therefore Calvinism must be false.

Click to expand...

A good point.

Here are more examples

Luke 12:29-30

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” NKJV

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ NASB


Is 5:4
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If Calvinism was correct, every single person on Earth would go to heaven. Here's the reasoning behind my claim:

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Calvinism teaches that going to heaven is only based on God's will, not on our own will. So if God chooses who goes to heaven according to his will, and he is not willing that any should perish (as taught in 2 Peter 3:9), then the logical conclusion is that everyone goes to heaven. The will of God is that the whole world would be saved.

But everyone knows that according to the Bible everyone is not going to heaven. Therefore Calvinism must be false.

Click to expand...

I don't suppose you want to see how your reasoning is flawed, not understanding Calvinism....

Have you ever asked a Calvinist what 2 Peter 3:9 is talking about? Have you ever studied it on your own?

Lifelong_sinner said:

With all the calvinist hate on this forum, it would make me think there are more arminianists than calvinists in the world.

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Is it "Calvinist hate" to point to texts that present a problem for certain forms of Calvinism???

BobRyan said:

A good point.

Here are more examples

Luke 12:29-30

NKJV "29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

NASB "29 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.​

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” NKJV

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ NASB


Is 5:4
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

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You can do all things with verses taken out of context (and do funky things with the text).

BobRyan said:

Is it "Calvinist hate" to point to texts that present a problem for certain forms of Calvinism???

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There are none.

By the way, as a member of a high church, historically Reformed tradition, that being liturgical Congregationalism as seen at the King’s Weigh House in London before its closure and merger into the United Reformed Church, and in various churches in Boston such as the Old South Church and my beloved Park Street Church, and to a lesser extent at the King’s Chapel in Brooklyn* I am really strongly opposed to the torrent of anti-Calvinist, and anti-Roman Catholic threads, although members have and should have the right to post them.**

Also, two of the three greatest televangelists in my opinion were Calvinist, Dr. James Kennedy of the Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Rev. Robert Schuller of the former Crystal Cathedral in Orange County, CA, which was a member of the former Dutch Reformed mainline denomination, and still is, as his son is carrying on the ministry in more humble premises, and the other was Archbishop Fulton Sheen, who Rev. Schuller also hosted at the Crystal Cathedral. Requiescat in Pace, and Memory Eternal, for these three wonderful preachers of the Gospel.

I also love Rev. Billy Graham, memory eternal as the greatest evangelizer of the past century, who among other heroic virtues, received the blessing of the Moscow Patriarch to preach in the Soviet Union, which was extremely helpful to the Russian Orthodox Church, because the Communists prevented them from catechizing the youth and interfered with their preaching to the point where most Russian priests and bishops weren’t able to do any, other than the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom, which is read annually, so Rev. Billy Graham made a huge difference in terms of keeping the Christian faith alive in the Orthodox Church and every other church in the USSR, because as an American celebrity, the Soviets didn’t dare lay a finger on him; the KGB could only look on at the harbinger of their demise, the Gospel of our Lord, being preached openly, in malign wrath. I do not count Graham with the three great televangelists however, as he was more of a general evangelist and open-air preacher in the historic revivalist tradition.

*not to be confused with the Unitarian Universalist parish in Boston which uses a modified 1662 Book of Common Prayer with the creeds and all mention of the Holy Trinity removed.

** Since members feel compelled to have polemical threads, and have every right to post them, why can’t we have more polemical threads, however, on churches that are doing actual harm, that we can all agree on, like promoting abortion?

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If Calvinism was correct, every single person on Earth would go to heaven. Here's the reasoning behind my claim:

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

Calvinism teaches that going to heaven is only based on God's will, not on our own will. So if God chooses who goes to heaven according to his will, and he is not willing that any should perish (as taught in 2 Peter 3:9), then the logical conclusion is that everyone goes to heaven. The will of God is that the whole world would be saved.

But everyone knows that according to the Bible everyone is not going to heaven. Therefore Calvinism must be false.

Click to expand...

This brings up a good point that theology absorbed by the next generation becomes an exaggeration of the previous.

The heresies today, are how the previous generation's theology was understood, or misunderstood as it were.

To think Calvinism is why Universalism is so popular, wouldn't have guessed it ...

Hammster said:

There are none.

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Indeed, I would argue both Calvinism and non-Calvinism in its Patristic/Eastern Orthodox, Arminian/Remonstrant and Wesleyan/Methodist forms are scripturally unimpeachable. Calvin, Wesley, Arminius, and also more neutral parties like Cranmer and Luther, and separately, the Church Fathers from antiquity, really knew their scriptures (Zwingli, not so much, if we are honest and objective about it)*. I can make sola scriptura arguments against a number of denominations including the liberal mainline churches, the Baptists, the non-sacramental Quakers, and the Sabbatarians, but I can’t argue against Calvinism, which has produced brilliant theologians like Karl Barth, whose Church Dogmatics actually does what Calvin tried to do in the Institutes, and succeeds in terms of pure scriptural logic but fails overall, albeit due to a forgivable lack of knowledge about church history, Patristics, textual criticism, and the eastern churches, because that knowledge existed but was isolated in libraries Calvin could not access, but which Karl Barth could.

Ultimately my choice to embrace Palamism is based on aesthetics, and I still love Calvinism.

*By the way, are there any explicitly Zwinglian churches?

spiritfilledjm said:

I'm sure there's plenty of anti-free will posts in the Semper Reformada forum. I just don't frequent it because I don't identify as reformed...or a calvinist...or an Armenian for that matter.

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Go look.

“Long suffering to us, not willing that any should perish.” Not willing that any of us should perish. This is precisely what the doctrine of election affirms.

BobRyan said:

A good point.

Here are more examples

Luke 12:29-30

NKJV "29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

NASB "29 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.​

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” NKJV

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ NASB


Is 5:4
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Click to expand...

BobRyan said:

Is it "Calvinist hate" to point to texts that present a problem for certain forms of Calvinism???

Click to expand...

Hammster said:

There are none.

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I am happy with that as the "answer" to the texts presented if you are. I think it is a good example of where the gap is.