If being homosexual is a sin, then why did God create homosexuals?

BigBadWlf · Sep 1, 2008

Beanieboy said:
http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/twin_studies/studies.html

I'm rather puzzled at the posts. I attended the University of Minnesota that did a lot of the Twin Studies in regards to homosexuality. The research does not "clearly" show that there is no natural link, but rather, through showing the probability that if one twin is gay, the other is 50% like to also be gay. They have researched this with twins raised apart AND raised separately.

Does that prove that homosexuality is genetic. No. That would be 100%. However, 50% does indicate that there is SOME genetic element.

Actually it does show a genetic link. Even in identical twins there is not 100% correlation among features we know to be genetically based. Eye color for example is only 98% correlated in identical twins. The twin studies done with lesbian and gay men have produced some of the highest such colorations known.

What has been found is that having a gene and your body expressing that gene are two different things. The key player here is the epigenome. The epigenome is a collection of molecules that are wrapped around DNA, these molecules turn genes on and off and subtly change over time. This is why even identical twins are not completely identical. The effect of the epigenome may explain one of the puzzling mysteries of sexual orientation: the fact that the biggest predictor of homosexuality (in males) is having older biological brothers, It should be noted that this is biological, not social. Adoptive older brothers have no such effect.

Flibbertigibbet · Sep 1, 2008

OllieFranz said:
That's odd. None of the life-long celibates I know think of that life as "exercising an option." It is a calling. A calling given only to those to whom God has also given the gift to resist their sex drive permanently.

And none of them would dream of imposing that life on someone that God has not called to it, especially without the gift of resistance, since then they would be making a vow they cannot keep.

I couldn't even begin to comment on lifelong celibacy - that certainly is a calling. And it's so far from my past life as to be hysterical.

But, now that I've found faith (or it found me), and I am soon to be a divorcee it is indeed an option for me. The other option would be having sex outside of marraige, which is against what I believe to be God's will for my life.

Read me, Ollie - I'm not trying to impose it on anyone. Just offering it up as my opinion - I don't expect anyone to live their lives a certain way just because I say so.

BigBadWlf · Sep 1, 2008

Allthisworld said:
The Bible is truth dont put your own spin on it. Believe what is true and the bible is true.

You mean like spinning the bible to justify anti-gay prejudice?

OllieFranz · Sep 1, 2008

Flibber--

While it is possible that you may need to practice celibacy for the rest of your life, you do not know what tomorrow brings. Your circumstances may change and allow you to once again marry. (Even with the strictest of no-remarriage-after-divorce interpretations, reconciliation with the ex-spouse and marriage after the death of the ex spouse are permitted.) While God gives you the strength each day to resist that day's temptation, he has not called you to perpetual celibacy and has not given you the gift he gave to Paul to allow it. I'm glad to hear that you understand the difference and respect it.

But all too many on this board and in conservative churches try to marginalize gays by telling them that they must live in life-long celibacy, even though they were not called to that life. That just sets them up for failure, disappointment and dispair. I'm glad to hear that you are not one of them.

David Brider · Sep 1, 2008

Of course, it's possible to married and celibate. Celibacy refers to sexual inactivity, not whether one is married or not.

Libre · Sep 1, 2008

Don't you find it a bit of a stretch to insist gays be celibate, when we know it doesn't work for most straights?

Pat

OllieFranz · Sep 1, 2008

David Brider said:
Of course, it's possible to married and celibate. Celibacy refers to sexual inactivity, not whether one is married or not.

Possible, but advised against:

Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1 Corinthians 7:3-5

edited to add: Which brings up the point that those who are trying to exercise celibacy without the gift and the calling are under greater attack from the Adversary, and anyone who places such a stumbling block before them (or unnecessarily steers them into the path of the stumbling block) is not acting in accordance with God's will.

Beanieboy · Sep 1, 2008

BigBadWlf said:
Actually it does show a genetic link. Even in identical twins there is not 100% correlation among features we know to be genetically based. Eye color for example is only 98% correlated in identical twins. The twin studies done with lesbian and gay men have produced some of the highest such colorations known.

What has been found is that having a gene and your body expressing that gene are two different things. The key player here is the epigenome. The epigenome is a collection of molecules that are wrapped around DNA, these molecules turn genes on and off and subtly change over time. This is why even identical twins are not completely identical. The effect of the epigenome may explain one of the puzzling mysteries of sexual orientation: the fact that the biggest predictor of homosexuality (in males) is having older biological brothers, It should be noted that this is biological, not social. Adoptive older brothers have no such effect.

You're right. I mispoke. It does point to evidence.

As long as we are pointing out corrections, I might as add one of the most important that I failed to include:

That they claim that it is a choice.
I then ask, "So, are you attracted to both men and women?"
They shout, "Of course not!"
I ask, "Do you ever just feel yourself so overwhelmed by love for a guy that you just want to lean over and kiss them? To know the smell of their skin? To feel them close to you?"
Again, they insist: "Never!"
I ask: "Do you ever fantasize about men?"
Again, they say, "No way! Me and two girls, yes. Two girls? Yes. But NEVER EVER me with a guy"
Then I ask: "Where is the choice? When did you make the choice from not being into girls at 10 to suddenly being aware of girls, and being attracted to girls? Did you calculate the pros and cons? Did you see if you could get a better deal at Barney's being gay than straight, and after praying about it to God, finally came to decide to only lead a heterosexual life? Or were you just attracted one day in a way that you can't describe? Did it just come to you "naturally" - in other words, it wasn't a choice?

There was a great class at the U of M in the 80s about GLBT Studies. Everyone had to keep a journal, and had to tell their coming out story. Heterosexuals were confused. The teacher said, "you know, when did you "know" that you were straight? Or when did you choose to start being attracted to the opposite sex? When did you "come out" to your friends about being heterosexual?

It was an eyeopening experience for many, understanding the difficulty of being different, and for the first time, being asked to identify why they are heterosexual, when they chose to be, and being flustered to find the answer: I guess I always knew - I was born this way. (Lightbulb)

cantata · Sep 1, 2008

All this talk of genes makes me feel like a fraud.

I'm obviously glad that other people are finding their sexual roots, so to speak, but, meh. *sigh*

Beanieboy · Sep 1, 2008

cantata said:
All this talk of genes makes me feel like a fraud.

Can you expound a bit?

visionary · Sep 1, 2008

During teen years when hormone rage, they also do extreme fluxations, where sometimes you have the urges and testostrone of a guy and then find yourself overwhelmed with estrogen. It is difficult enough to deal with these upheavels at a physical level without the identity crisis of gender.

Allthisworld · Sep 1, 2008

BigBadWlf said:
You mean like spinning the bible to justify anti-gay prejudice?

Hahahaha, well first of all, there is nowhere in the bible where it says homosexuality is not a sin. But there is placES where it says it is. Next Prejudice: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
Hmm, i thought for a second there you knew what you were talking about.
I have knowledge..the Bible. I have thought, The bible. and i have reason, The Bible. You can tell me all this about how i dot follow all of leviticus and hey maybe i am a hypocrite but so is everyone else in this conversation. But it doesnt change the fact that it says homosexuality is an abomination. People ignore the fact. Damn straight i am anti-gay...cause God is. Dont tell me God never said anything about homosexuals.....what is the bible....the word of God....therefore.....God said it.

BigBadWlf · Sep 1, 2008

Allthisworld said:
Hahahaha, well first of all, there is nowhere in the bible where it says homosexuality is not a sin. But there is placES where it says it is.

No that is just your personal interpretation.

Next Prejudice: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
Hmm, i thought for a second there you knew what you were talking about.

Would you prefer the more accurate word bigotry to be used?

Perhaps you need to educate yourself. http://www.understandingprejudice.org/

I have knowledge..the Bible. I have thought, The bible. and i have reason, The Bible. You can tell me all this about how i dot follow all of leviticus and hey maybe i am a hypocrite but so is everyone else in this conversation.

Yes hypocrite- you selectively use verses of the bible to justify your own prejudices (bigotry) while ignore the teachings of Jesus on the matter and ignoring all the other laws in the bible that you personally dont wish to follow.

But it doesnt change the fact that it says homosexuality is an abomination. [/qutoe]
Technically it says male on male rape is an abomination

Other abominations include eating shellfish.
Talking to women during her period (though I cant figure out how you can actually ask a woman if it is her time of the month without first talking to her)
Wearing clothing made for the opposite sex which doesnt just mean cross dressing but includes pants on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford buttondown.
Taking pride in a good report card
Having a steak cooked rareyep its an abomination
Using the bank is an abomination (interest you know)
Having or using a credit card
Saturday afternoon football game with the guys? abomination
Glancing at your horoscope in the newspaper is an abomination
Feeling just a little bit superior to those nasty gays and lesbians? your committing an abomination
Advocating discrimination is an abomination
And engaging in prejudice and bigotry against other people

since you are doing these things should people hate youor is it different when you do it?

People ignore the fact. Damn straight i am anti-gay...cause God is. Dont tell me God never said anything about homosexuals.....what is the bible....the word of God....therefore.....God said it.

Click to expand...

Racists also happily use the bible and the fact God clearly defined the white race as superior to justify their personal prejudice (bigotry). DO you agree with the racists? (remember God said it )

Allthisworld · Sep 1, 2008

BigBadWlf said:
No that is just your personal interpretation.
Not My interpretation Gods.

Would you prefer the more accurate word bigotry to be used?
Go ahead, doesnt mean anything to me , i respect all your views i just know im right cause the bible says so.
Perhaps you need to educate yourself. http://www.understandingprejudice.org/

Yes hypocrite- you selectively use verses of the bible to justify your own prejudices (bigotry) while ignore the teachings of Jesus on the matter and ignoring all the other laws in the bible that you personally dont wish to follow.
God, knows what is right and wrong and when we stand before God you will see your thoughts unravel before your eyes.

But it doesnt change the fact that it says homosexuality is an abomination. [/qutoe]
Technically it says male on male rape is an abomination
....
Romans 1:26-27

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their woman did change the natural use into that which is against nature.
And like wise the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another: men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Hmmm

Other abominations include eating shellfish.
Talking to women during her period (though I cant figure out how you can actually ask a woman if it is her time of the month without first talking to her)
Wearing clothing made for the opposite sex which doesnt just mean cross dressing but includes pants on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford buttondown.
Taking pride in a good report card
Having a steak cooked rareyep its an abomination
Using the bank is an abomination (interest you know)
Having or using a credit card
Saturday afternoon football game with the guys? abomination
Glancing at your horoscope in the newspaper is an abomination
Feeling just a little bit superior to those nasty gays and lesbians? your committing an abomination
Advocating discrimination is an abomination
And engaging in prejudice and bigotry against other people

since you are doing these things should people hate youor is it different when you do it?
Galatians 2:15-16 (NIV)
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Racists also happily use the bible and the fact God clearly defined the white race as superior to justify their personal prejudice (bigotry). DO you agree with the racists? (remember God said it )

Click to expand...

Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Romans 3: 29

Who are the Gentiles??????ANY RACE OTHER THAN JEWISH

IzzyPop · Sep 2, 2008

Allthisworld said:
Not My interpretation Gods.

So you speak for God?

Allthisworld said:
Go ahead, doesnt mean anything to me , i respect all your views i just know im right cause the bible says so.

No, your interpretation of the Bible supports your own prejudice. Funny how that works, eh?

Allthisworld said:
God, knows what is right and wrong and when we stand before God you will see your thoughts unravel before your eyes.

That says nothing.

Allthisworld said:
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Romans 3: 29

Who are the Gentiles??????ANY RACE OTHER THAN JEWISH

And what is your point? I may be a gentile, but your God lays no claim on me.

eves_adam · Sep 2, 2008

I have yet to see a single passage of scripture from the so-called fundamentalists or christians who claim biblical text denounces homosexuality. The sad part is that so much can be clarified by actually citing text and by interpreting said text in light of the historical, political and ethical circumstances at the time such text was written.

For example, if you examine the text in Romans 1 24-27, you must examine the text in the following light: if there is a condemnation of "homosexuality" then such condemnations must be interpreted in light of typical "homosexual" relations occuring at the time: that between grown men and boys. Clearly, there is a power differential and abuse of power. Is this therefore a condemnation of homosexuality per se or a condemnation of non consensual relationships?

Here is a link which will help those who are unfamiliar with the process of exegesis:

http://www.christcovenantmcc.org/notsin_notsickness.htm

Again, ask yourself the question: what is being condemned: is it an act, or the power differential instead?

Let's try to think, people. Claiming christian or fundamentalist status does not excuse one from the challenging process of exegetical work and analysis. Rather it DEMANDS such work. You have to pay the piper if you want to march.

SiderealExalt · Sep 2, 2008

Personally. I think pointing at ancient bits of text written by people you never met who existed in cultures almost wholly unlike your own and using it as a "moral" justification for just about anything is asinine in and of itself. But I won't put it past anyone to do incredibly stupid things.

cantata · Sep 2, 2008

Beanieboy said:
Can you expound a bit?

I can almost guarantee that if there were a test and you ran the test on me, my genes would tell you I'm heterosexual. (As would any other tests for biological influences such as hormone exposure in the womb, including the finger length test.)

But I identify as queer and generally find myself more attracted to women than to men.

quatona · Sep 2, 2008

cantata said:
I can almost guarantee that if there were a test and you ran the test on me, my genes would tell you I'm heterosexual. (As would any other tests for biological influences such as hormone exposure in the womb, including the finger length test.)

But I identify as queer and generally find myself more attracted to women than to men.

So you have no excuse at all?

cantata · Sep 2, 2008

quatona said:
So you have no excuse at all?

Nope, I'm deliberately perverse.

If being homosexual is a sin, then why did God create homosexuals?

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