If being homosexual is a sin, then why did God create homosexuals?

oldbetang said:

Sorry, but the fact that the study was published in a peer-reviewed journal suggests that it was indeed peer-reviewed.

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Did you miss this bit in BigBadWlf's post?

...with the notation that it did not pass peer review despite numerous submissions.

David.

arunma said:

If murder is a sin, then why did God create murderers?

If I may ask, what's the real question here? I perceive that perhaps you're not actually asking about homosexuality, but about the sovereignty of God and why he would create people knowing that they would sin. Or perhaps I'm wrong, and you really were just asking about homosexuality. Either way, I could be more helpful to you if you clarify.

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This analogy is an epic fail.
Comparing a valid sexual orientation to murder?
That dog won't hunt.

twistedsketch said:

This passage does not indicate that He creates homosexuals. Sorry, Charlie.
.

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Sure it does. We're here - and He created us.

Obviously God DOES create homosexuals.

I won't be citing studies - peer-reviewed or not. Just my own thoughts on the matter.

I don't believe God creates homosexuals and more than I believe he creates pedophiles, podophiles, zoophiles, or bigots. None of these things are, imo, genetic.

I listed the "philes" not because I think homosexuality is synonomous with any of them - but because they involve human sexuality. I listed bigotry, because it, together with its close companion, intolerance, are often found on threads such as this. (On both sides, I might add. If I have to read the shrimp argument one more time I'm going to flip out and boil a pound or two. )

I do believe, from my study of the Bible, that God's intent is man/woman. That said, how many of us actually live our lives - in all the details - as God intended? It is precisely because we can't and don't that we have a Saviour who did.

Our sexual attractions and desires are molded, and often distorted, by many factors that occur during our lives well before puberty. Is it not conceivable to those who argue that they know homosexuals with "perfectly normal upbringings" (I'm not sure exactly what that would be, mind you), that there might be some factors outside of your friends' conscious knowledge that could have influenced sexuality?

More of my opinion: God has gifted each and every one of us with life - factors, known or unknown, have influenced the sexuality of each of us in some way or another. How that sexuality is expressed (attractions) is, imo, set and pretty much immutable after that first onslaught during puberty. Of course, I do believe that God is in the miracle business - but it would definitely have to be His doing and we don't have the ability to change the core attraction we have.

You have only to look at the recidivist rate among pedophiles - or at your own history of the type of people you've been attracted to find that it really doesn't alter much over time. Nevermind male/female - it's gets way more specific than that, doesn't it, for all of us? If you could line up all of the people I've been attracted to, not only would they all be male but they would also look like they are related.

What we do have, once we are adults, is the ability to discern whether our particular attraction is in line with God's word. And if it is not, then we have the choice as to whether or not we act upon that attraction. That may leave some of us out in the cold, as far as a sexual relationship goes - no matter what our attraction may be and whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. Celibacy is always an option, ya know.

I always get discouraged by the rancor and disrespect, and lack of love, that runs through these type threads. That, rather than the subject matter at hand, is more often than not what draws me in to post.

Every person posting in this thread, straight or gay, is the object of God's love - for whom He made the ultimate sacrifice so that we might be able to have a relationship with Him if we so choose. Whenever I see that someone is viewing homosexuality as a "particularly wicked sin" and feeling free to condemn others because of it, I think that some introspection and examination of their own lives and attitudes as they align with God's word is in order.

God loves us as we are - and it is His work to bring us to repentance when needed. It is very possible, imo, to express what you believe God's word says and still show compassion and love to others, as I believe we are called to do.

This is one of those controversial subjects of the spirit of God vs holy text, which I selfishly avoid. However not today.

Personally I think homosexuals should do what they like and be happy, and us Christians should shut up about it stop enforcing our belief upon them.
However if the homosexual is Christian, I would say to them 'Do not let this desire you have get in the way of your love of lord.'
Moreover I have read an article away ago explaining that homosexuality is caused not by choice but by formation of the brain or something like that.

Saying sexuality is a choice is simply dishonest. Sexuality is discovered, not decided.

oldbetang said:

Sorry, but the fact that the study was published in a peer-reviewed journal suggests that it was indeed peer-reviewed.

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Only if you ignore the fact the journal specifically indicated that the study did not pass peer review

Flibbertigibbet said:

I won't be citing studies - peer-reviewed or not. Just my own thoughts on the matter.

I don't believe God creates homosexuals and more than I believe he creates pedophiles, podophiles, zoophiles, or bigots. None of these things are, imo, genetic.

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You opinion does not change fact into something else.

All the evidence shows that sexual orientation is inborn.

Your personal dislike of the truth does not change it

I listed the "philes" not because I think homosexuality is synonomous with any of them - but because they involve human sexuality. I listed bigotry, because it, together with its close companion, intolerance, are often found on threads such as this. (On both sides, I might add. If I have to read the shrimp argument one more time I'm going to flip out and boil a pound or two. )

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If you are tired of it why not do something no one else has managed to do…provide a logical response to it

I do believe, from my study of the Bible, that God's intent is man/woman. That said, how many of us actually live our lives - in all the details - as God intended? It is precisely because we can't and don't that we have a Saviour who did.

Our sexual attractions and desires are molded, and often distorted, by many factors that occur during our lives well before puberty. Is it not conceivable to those who argue that they know homosexuals with "perfectly normal upbringings" (I'm not sure exactly what that would be, mind you), that there might be some factors outside of your friends' conscious knowledge that could have influenced sexuality?

More of my opinion: God has gifted each and every one of us with life - factors, known or unknown, have influenced the sexuality of each of us in some way or another. How that sexuality is expressed (attractions) is, imo, set and pretty much immutable after that first onslaught during puberty. Of course, I do believe that God is in the miracle business - but it would definitely have to be His doing and we don't have the ability to change the core attraction we have.

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And many have claimed such for decades…yet despite continuous searching no such environmental factor has been found.
We are left with two main options on this fact. Either we ignore the facts and continue to pretend that despite no inkling of such an environmental cause we pretend that one surely must exist or we do the logical thing and embrace the idea that such an environmental factor does not exist and move on.

You have only to look at the recidivist rate among pedophiles - or at your own history of the type of people you've been attracted to find that it really doesn't alter much over time. Nevermind male/female - it's gets way more specific than that, doesn't it, for all of us? If you could line up all of the people I've been attracted to, not only would they all be male but they would also look like they are related.

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the bisexuals would disagree

and most of the rest of us as well.

My tastes have changed as I have grown older. What I am attracted to now would have shocked the 16 year old me. The very fact that today I prefer 30 somethings alone would send the younger self into shock, but it is very fortunate for the 30 something love of my life

And I fully expect the 90 year old me to be in a wheel chair happily chasing some sexy 90 year old around the nursing home even though I certainly don’t find 90 year olds smoking in the least today

What we do have, once we are adults, is the ability to discern whether our particular attraction is in line with God's word. And if it is not, then we have the choice as to whether or not we act upon that attraction. That may leave some of us out in the cold, as far as a sexual relationship goes - no matter what our attraction may be and whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. Celibacy is always an option, ya know.

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please explain why an entire minority should “be celibate” based on your personal opinions

I think one point in this discussion that is often neglected is that, God's love and compassion is beyond anything, there is nothing you can do that God will not forgive if you repent.

Whether homosexuality is a sin or not is debatable but God compassion is not, so if you are homosexual do not crave for excesses, and live to your best of standards.

Well, shouldn't homosexuals avoid excesses...just as much as heterosexuals should? I mean, is it more okay to sniff coke off someone's genitals while you're both covered in chickens with ball-gags in their beaks if you're both straight? Why explicitly mention that homosexuals should avoid excess?

oldbetang said:

Sorry, but the fact that the study was published in a peer-reviewed journal suggests that it was indeed peer-reviewed.

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With me that raises the same question I have when I read "dermatologically tested" on the shampoo bottle: "That´s cool, but with what result?"

twistedsketch said:

When did Paul say that gay sex, either between two males or two females was OK? He never did.

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When did Paul say that eating buffalo meat was not a sin? So when I had that steak last night, did I sin?

Flibbertigibbet said:

Celibacy is always an option, ya know.

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Why is it that it is always people who are not celibate themselves who insist that certain others must follow that path.

Celibates know how difficult that path is, and how it takes a gift from God to follow it. Paul himself said:

As a life-long celibate, I know how difficult the path can be. I would not force it on anyone not called to it.

http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/twin_studies/studies.html

I'm rather puzzled at the posts. I attended the University of Minnesota that did a lot of the Twin Studies in regards to homosexuality. The research does not "clearly" show that there is no natural link, but rather, through showing the probability that if one twin is gay, the other is 50% like to also be gay. They have researched this with twins raised apart AND raised separately.

Does that prove that homosexuality is genetic. No. That would be 100%. However, 50% does indicate that there is SOME genetic element.

What I don't quite understand about the posts is people insistance to be told over and over again about people like Cameron (still? Really?) that his research has been disproven, and yet, insist on believing it fact. Maybe that would be a good research project itself: why people insist on believing untruths or blantant lies, while claiming to be against the Father of Lies himself.

Back in the 80s, when the research began, most gay people were saying that they were simply born that way, while the conservatives in the churches were in that it was a choice. Once again, they have been proven wrong.

So, then they said, "It's unnatural! It doesn't happen in nature. 'Male and female he made them.' " Research was then done in 1990 that discovered many species that have showed a large number of species that have homosexual behavior. It was "natural." Central Park had two gay penguins.

The response? "But we aren't animals!!" So, we aren't a part of nature? What of the animals? Do some "choose" to become homosexual?

Then they argue: Homosexual parents will create homosexaul children!!!
Really? My parents were straight. My partners parents were straight. I don't think I know of any gay person who had gay parents. So, "The sky is falling! Heterosexual parents raise gay children!"

THEN, they have to link them with pedophiles, or murderers, or rapists.
You can be heterosexual AND a pedophile, murderer, or rapist.
In fast, most are.

However, although I am a homosexual, alas, I can tell the difference between kissing my boyfriend of 40 goodnight, and a person that has sex with a 5 year old. It's very different, and very inappropriate, and usually very damaging for the child. I can tell the difference between making dinner for my partner, and stabbing someone in the chest. Go figur. I can also tell the difference between having consensual sex, and forced sex.

Are anti-gay heterosexuals simply unable to discern the difference between harming a victim, and loving another? Why else would they insist on comparing apples to machine guns?

The will say: God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. That was God's plan!

But it's not a well thought out plan for God. That means that A&E have kids, and then the next generation is reproduced by incest. "Uncle Cain - I mean, Dad..."

They will say: God CLEARRRRLY says that Homosexuality is wrong.
The Bible says nothing about Homosexuality, because "homosexuality" didn't exist - not the way that we define it.
I'm disgusted how many Christians still believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by homosexuality (and not a list of other things in the bible. Of the list of sins, "sexual immorality" is listed, and that is not CLEAR about anything.) They won't even acknowledge that the men of the town wanted to rape the angels.
They ingore all of Leviticus except for two verses. They won't look at research on translation, which has already been done for them, and laid out before them on the internet, and then, meditate on it with God, and ask for understanding.
Romans talks of idol worshippers, and even that passage has been turned into mainly about "homosexuality" rather than sexual worship rites.
Greeks had bathhouses for men, and were usually married to women. They didn't even understand the concept of "heterosexual" or "homosexaul" but saw heterosexaul sex as procreation, and homosexual sex as recreation. It was all what men did.

Even looking at history, one can see that in the 1600s, someone who had gay sex was "committing a crime against nature", because they assumed everyone heterosexual, but committed homosexual acts out of perversion. This, in a time of "bloodletting" and using "leeches" to cure people. In the 1800s, "homosexual" was first coined (so, one has to ask how such a word was able to be translated 1800 years prior to its conception.) Prior to 1972, homosexaulity was seen as a mental illness, and subjects were often given shock therapy, etc, with no results, other than harming the subject.
Today, most people understand that homosexuality is an orientation - not an action. It is how one is attracted.

One certainly must choose whether they want to acknowledge that they are gay, and be in a gay relationship, which harms no one, or be abstinant, which only a very, very small minority of the heterosexual population take on (although Paul wishes they all were), or you can be one of those guys I often hear about, who is married, and has sex with men, BUT ISN'T GAY! You will benefit from public approval, and become skillful at being deceitful.

Straight people will often try to guess whether someone is gay or straight. "You can tell", they claim. You can tell a person's actions? Or does "gay" mean someone who is attracted to the same sex, and much better understood now?

So, when I see someone say, "Homosexuality is clearly a choice. The bible clearly says...", all I can think is, "really? Does anyone STILL believe that? Do you still believe that a tan is really good for you, so slather on the Crisco and bake out in the sun? Do you think that bright green shag is a good way to decorate? You have internet, so I'm a bit confused."

One would have to purposely ignore a population (most people know at least one friend, family member or coworker who is gay), ignore relevant research, ignore Scriptural study and translation, and basically seek not the truth at all, but be so dedicated to a lie so as to support ones own hatred for gay people, and think that it is not only justified, but serves God in some way.

So, to that, I say, I'm done. I'm not throwing my pearls before swine.

Flibbertigibbet said:

I won't be citing studies - peer-reviewed or not. Just my own thoughts on the matter.

I don't believe God creates homosexuals and more than I believe he creates pedophiles, podophiles, zoophiles, or bigots. None of these things are, imo, genetic.

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But when does your opinion count as fact? If my opinion is that I can fly, my jumping off a building will have the same results as if I am more realistic.

I listed the "philes" not because I think homosexuality is synonomous with any of them - but because they involve human sexuality.

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'phile' is something we attach to mean love of. Technically, anyone who likes children, as in how most people 'like' a baby who is cute (as compared to one is screaming and puking and such), are pedophiles, even though the word contains with it different meanings which is why we don't call the average person who thinks little children are cute a pedophile. On the other hand, if I call you a infophile, that means you just love gathering information, probably spending a lot of time online surfing for random facts and such. An arachnophile is someone who likes spiders. Nothing sexual at all. Just some of them we tend to attach sexuality with.

I listed bigotry, because it, together with its close companion, intolerance, are often found on threads such as this. (On both sides, I might add. If I have to read the shrimp argument one more time I'm going to flip out and boil a pound or two. )

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I forget what it is, but there is a good recipe which has shrimp, potatoes (lots), sausage, and corn all boiled together. Very good, just add some rice. Normally it is a big pot of food to bring to family gatherings.

I do believe, from my study of the Bible, that God's intent is man/woman. That said, how many of us actually live our lives - in all the details - as God intended? It is precisely because we can't and don't that we have a Saviour who did.

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God's intent was for us to reproduce. But Paul clearly takes a different case on it, and I have come down to this problem, either Paul was wrong, or God no longer intends for us to reproduce (He told us the fill the world, now it is full, so its like "Ok God, we filled the earth, now what?").

Our sexual attractions and desires are molded, and often distorted, by many factors that occur during our lives well before puberty. Is it not conceivable to those who argue that they know homosexuals with "perfectly normal upbringings" (I'm not sure exactly what that would be, mind you), that there might be some factors outside of your friends' conscious knowledge that could have influenced sexuality?

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An interesting question is what is 'normal'? That vastly changes based on time or culture. But this stems from one of your beliefs which I have addressed previously.

More of my opinion: God has gifted each and every one of us with life - factors, known or unknown, have influenced the sexuality of each of us in some way or another. How that sexuality is expressed (attractions) is, imo, set and pretty much immutable after that first onslaught during puberty. Of course, I do believe that God is in the miracle business - but it would definitely have to be His doing and we don't have the ability to change the core attraction we have.

Click to expand...

There are some people on these forums you may want to talk to, because some here have admitted changing sexuality post puberty.

You have only to look at the recidivist rate among pedophiles - or at your own history of the type of people you've been attracted to find that it really doesn't alter much over time. Nevermind male/female - it's gets way more specific than that, doesn't it, for all of us? If you could line up all of the people I've been attracted to, not only would they all be male but they would also look like they are related.

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Pedophilia happens post puberty, it is not set a puberty, though a tendency towards younger can happen younger than that, but that is normal. Anyways, when you speak of recidivism, you are meaning to speak about child molesters, most of whom are not even pedophiles to begin with.

What we do have, once we are adults, is the ability to discern whether our particular attraction is in line with God's word. And if it is not, then we have the choice as to whether or not we act upon that attraction. That may leave some of us out in the cold, as far as a sexual relationship goes - no matter what our attraction may be and whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. Celibacy is always an option, ya know.

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Yes it is. And giving everything you own to the poor is another option.

I always get discouraged by the rancor and disrespect, and lack of love, that runs through these type threads. That, rather than the subject matter at hand, is more often than not what draws me in to post.

Every person posting in this thread, straight or gay, is the object of God's love - for whom He made the ultimate sacrifice so that we might be able to have a relationship with Him if we so choose. Whenever I see that someone is viewing homosexuality as a "particularly wicked sin" and feeling free to condemn others because of it, I think that some introspection and examination of their own lives and attitudes as they align with God's word is in order.

God loves us as we are - and it is His work to bring us to repentance when needed. It is very possible, imo, to express what you believe God's word says and still show compassion and love to others, as I believe we are called to do.

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If God's love is so strong, why did He allow sin in in the first place. I mean, He can do anything, can't He?

Q: "If being homosexual is a sin, then why did God create homosexuals?"

A: "So people could waste their time flaming each other on Christian Forum message boards."

But seriously, if no one is bothering you, don't sweat it.

The Bible is truth dont put your own spin on it. Believe what is true and the bible is true.

lawtonfogle said:

But when does your opinion count as fact?

I don't recall stating that my opinion is fact - nor that anyone else has to agree with me. There's little evidence either way - a fact that puzzles me since it's so clearly a hot-button issue and ought to merit more research, if only to put an end to the divisive arguments.

FOR ALL: I don't intend my opinion to sway people either way. This is a public forum, and I was just stating my thoughts on the matter.

'phile' is something we attach to mean love of. Technically, anyone who likes children, as in how most people 'like' a baby who is cute (as compared to one is screaming and puking and such), are pedophiles, even though the word contains with it different meanings which is why we don't call the average person who thinks little children are cute a pedophile. On the other hand, if I call you a infophile, that means you just love gathering information, probably spending a lot of time online surfing for random facts and such. An arachnophile is someone who likes spiders. Nothing sexual at all. Just some of them we tend to attach sexuality with.
I was referring to the "philias" which are DSM categories pertaining specifically to sexuality. Grammatical error. I am a bibliophile, but I don't get busy with my books which I suppose would be bibliophilia.

I also am not equating homosexuality with pedophilia, rape or murder - except insofar as basic sexual attraction is generally static.

I forget what it is, but there is a good recipe which has shrimp, potatoes (lots), sausage, and corn all boiled together. Very good, just add some rice. Normally it is a big pot of food to bring to family gatherings.[/color]

That would be jambalaya - yummy!!


There are some people on these forums you may want to talk to, because some here have admitted changing sexuality post puberty.


Pedophilia happens post puberty, it is not set a puberty, though a tendency towards younger can happen younger than that, but that is normal. Anyways, when you speak of recidivism, you are meaning to speak about child molesters, most of whom are not even pedophiles to begin with.
Actually, working with DHR over the years, in my area there have been a large number of adolescents who are pedophiles (attracted to pre-pubertal children). I don't know about overall statistics, so I don't claim any expertise in the matter. Just my own limited first-hand knowledge.

Yes it is. And giving everything you own to the poor is another option.
Absolutely. And Ollie - I am celibate, and it's certainly not easy. I didn't say anyone HAD to be celibate - I draw my line at telling other people how to live - and I certainly was not implying that only people with same-sex attraction should be celibate.


If God's love is so strong, why did He allow sin in in the first place. I mean, He can do anything, can't He?

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I cannot even begin to fathom the mind of God. I have no idea.

_________________________________________________
It seems I am doomed to offending everyone on both sides of this issue.

BigBadWlf said:

please explain why an entire minority should “be celibate” based on your personal opinions [/color]

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I didn't say they "should", I said it is an option. Nor did I confine that option to only homosexuals. I'm exercising that option myself.

I just expressed my opinion - I don't demand that everyone else accept it or be labeled an idiot, a bigot or an abomination.

Flibbertigibbet said:

I didn't say they "should", I said it is an option. Nor did I confine that option to only homosexuals. I'm exercising that option myself.

I just expressed my opinion - I don't demand that everyone else accept it or be labeled an idiot, a bigot or an abomination.

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That's odd. None of the life-long celibates I know think of that life as "exercising an option." It is a calling. A calling given only to those to whom God has also given the gift to resist their sex drive permanently.

And none of them would dream of imposing that life on someone that God has not called to it, especially without the gift of resistance, since then they would be making a vow they cannot keep.