If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

Radagast · May 10, 2018

Paul of Eugene OR said:
The idea of sin and guilt is incompatible with the idea of no free will. Without free will, there cannot be sin or guilt.

That may be so, but that would still be true for compatibilist free will.

If I want to do something bad, that's sinful, even if I was predestined to do it.

Neogaia777 · May 10, 2018

Paul of Eugene OR said:
The idea of sin and guilt is incompatible with the idea of no free will. Without free will, there cannot be sin or guilt.

Maybe...? And I can see the logic of that... But, maybe we feel guilt over our sin (or some of our sin) because we do not fully understand or comprehend God's will in our lives...? That is also possible as well...

That he might be bringing us through, and leading us through a "process" where we will not have sin (or guilt) in our lives any longer (one day)...? And maybe we just don't fully understand that concept or how it all works, and he does...?

And maybe sometimes, some of the guilt, regret, shame, fear, "whatever", we feel over or about our our sin, is self-defeating and counterproductive sometimes to that end...

Maybe we don't correctly prioritize sin(s) the way he does either, I know many Christians who don't... And because we don't we don't know the right way out of it/them or all of them, and he does...

God Bless!

Job3315 · May 10, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I don't mean any offense, and I'm sorry if this cause offense, but, are you even reading any of the posts...?

God Bless!

Lol no, I often don’t read other answers before I write mine. If I do, then my answer won't be as objective as I want it to be.

Your answer wasn't clear to me, that's why I asked. I’ll refrain from answering this one.

Neogaia777 · May 10, 2018

Job3315 said:
Lol no, I often don’t read other answers before I write mine. If I do, then my answer won't be as objective as I want it to be.

Your answer wasn't clear to me, that's why I asked. I’ll refrain from answering this one.

Alright, but you really should look over a thread before hastily replying though, it often takes twists and turns and can even become something altogether different from the OP, as it evolves...

God Bless!

TuxAme · May 10, 2018

If we didn't have free will, we couldn't merit either heaven or hell because we wouldn't be in control of our actions. God would need some third place to stick all of us.

Job3315 · May 10, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Alright, but you really should look over a thread before hastily replying though, it often takes twists and turns and can even become something altogether different from the OP, as it evolves...

God Bless!

I go to a thread to answer the question/doubt the original person who wrote it has. That’s why I asked you about the original question.

Just forget about it. I’m not into losing my time.

Neogaia777 · May 10, 2018

TuxAme said:
If we didn't have free will, we couldn't merit either heaven or hell because we wouldn't be in control of our actions. God would need some third place to stick all of us.

By man's logic, yes...

I wonder what God might have to say to that though (and I bet it would be really good) (and totally crush man's logic)...

God Bless!

Apologetic_Warrior · May 10, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Only if predestination had being, and in that case predestination would be God, and predetermining God, but that's just switching out predestination for "fatalism" which predestination is not. God has the free-est will possible, exercising His free will He predestines and elects His people before the foundation of the world from eternity. Only those whom He has chosen from eternity can be saved. If it were not so, then one can forget about the attributes of omniscience and immutability as it pertains to the knowledge of God.

He created Adam with a free will, but not immutably that he could not fall from it.

Neogaia777 · May 10, 2018

Job3315 said:
I go to a thread to answer the question/doubt the original person who wrote it has. That’s why I asked you about the original question.

Just forget about it. I’m not into losing my time.

K, you don't have to get hurt or offended by it, geez...

And, I just didn't see how you were addressing the original question either...? But, whatever, maybe your right, don't waste your time if you feel like it is a waste of time, K...?

God Bless!

thesunisout · May 10, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

1 Timothy 2:2-3

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It says He would have all men saved but not all men are saved. So something is happening contrary to His will in the sense of what He desires. It's clear then that human beings who reject Him are doing it against His will for them. Predestination is a real thing but here we have testimony to the fact that God didn't create hell for men, He created it for the devil. Unfortunately some men follow him there.

Neogaia777 · May 10, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Only if predestination had being, and in that case predestination would be God, and predetermining God, but that's just switching out predestination for "fatalism" which predestination is not. God has the free-est will possible, exercising His free will He predestines and elects His people before the foundation of the world from eternity. Only those whom He has chosen from eternity can be saved. If it were not so, then one can forget about the attributes of omniscience and immutability as it pertains to the knowledge of God.

He created Adam with a free will, but not immutably that he could not fall from it.

God, the Father, and God the Son, (our chosen God by him (the Father)) (Only begotten God in the bosom position of/with the Father)...

Anyway, I suspect only God the Father was the only one always truly omniscient, (and has "no beginning or end) (but he (Christ) the "only begotten God", by him (The Father) or God the Son, is the Alpha and Omega, or the first and last, or the beginning and the end of all things, and ever first and last in all things)...

Anyway, I suspect God the Father was the only one "always" truly omniscient... But the only begotten God, (Our God) with him, is now though, after being resurrected or from the time of becoming a man... And took his seat at the Fathers right hand at that time...

God Bless!

Micah888 · May 10, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

That is the logical conclusion, since the Bible says that God would have ALL men (people) to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But the Bible does NOT teach that some are predestined for Heaven and others for Hell. The Gospel must be preached to every creature, and God commands all men everywhere to repent, which means that if all would repent and believe, all would be saved.

Micah888 · May 10, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Anyway, I suspect God the Father was the only one "always" truly omniscient...

God is one, and the Godhead is one. So if the Father is omniscient, so is the Son, and so if the Holy Spirit. One God, three Persons.

Neogaia777 · May 10, 2018

Micah888 said:
That is the logical conclusion, since the Bible says that God would have ALL men (people) to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But the Bible does NOT teach that some are predestined for Heaven and others for Hell. The Gospel must be preached to every creature, and God commands all men everywhere to repent, which means that if all would repent and believe, all would be saved.

I would say always be "repentant" or have a repentant heart and attitude since we are really, never really free from all sin in this world or this life, and so, being "continually repentant" till then, and living a life of repentance should be a state of mind and heart and way of life for us, till we are truly free from all sin...

And believe of course...

Be humble also, (is a sign of being or living a life and lifestyle of repentance) (or is a result of fruit of being "repentant"... And will keep you from being puffed up with pride, a sin God really hates, since it is the exact opposite and stands in opposition to being truly repentant or humble...

God Bless!

drjean · May 10, 2018

Mankind does have free will.... choice .... even Adam and Eve before there was sin, before there was law... there was good and evil. They chose evil.

"Everything" is not predestined in man's sense of the term, imo. I have used the analogy of the 10 year old boy going outside in the rain. The mother KNOWS he is going to jump into mud puddles. Does her knowing CAUSE him to do this? No. God's knowing likewise doesn't cause us to follow His plan, however, the BIG PICTURE (human terms) always comes out as God plans.

Neogaia777 · May 10, 2018

Micah888 said:
God is one, and the Godhead is one. So if the Father is omniscient, so is the Son, and so if the Holy Spirit. One God, three Persons.

Yeah, now, but was it always so...? That is the question...?

They can still be equal in being and standing and nature, and not be exactly equal in other ways... Till they were, that is...

God Bless!

Danielwright2311 · May 10, 2018

Jesus died for all the whole world, its God who decides and knows who goes to heaven, its his choice, like it or not, he decides.

He is God we are not, and everything is his knowledge and knowing.

Our God is all powerful, all knowing and all forgiving.

He also helps the ones who want to go to heaven.

But, I will say, If you want to be saved from hell and are, it was Gods plan.

Micah888 · May 10, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Yeah, now, but was it always so...? That is the question...?

Since the Godhead is ETERNAL it was always so. Believe it.

Halbhh · May 10, 2018

Another wording is: Did God make us (by His design) totally predictable? Many just assume this, but the Bible suggests otherwise:

"5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

So, if this wording is true, as I believe, then it says a fact -- God regretted that He had made humans.

7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

Remember how He made the Earth and all in it? --

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

So, God made all good, yet later regretted He had made us, and considered to destroy most or all creatures.

This means that by His design God must have chosen to create us to be unpredictable, and His choices are the best possible choices.

Ergo, for anything good to exist, evil must be possible, and all of it is somewhat unpredictable, even though we could imagine both nature and we are predictable in part, in aspects, in certain ways -- like the weather -- just not predictable in full "absolute everything".

Ergo it's simply not the case that all is predetermined.

What is predetermined is that God will accomplish His plans, because He has said He will.

Our redemption into Eternal Life.

Apologetic_Warrior · May 10, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
God, the Father, and God the Son, (our chosen God by him (the Father)) (Only begotten God in the bosom position of/with the Father)...

Anyway, I suspect only God the Father was the only one always truly omniscient, (and has "no beginning or end) (but he (Christ) the "only begotten God", by him (The Father) or God the Son, is the Alpha and Omega, or the first and last, or the beginning and the end of all things, and ever first and last in all things)...

Anyway, I suspect God the Father was the only one "always" truly omniscient... But the only begotten God, (Our God) with him, is now though, after being resurrected or from the time of becoming a man... And took his seat at the Fathers right hand at that time...

God Bless!

Even from a non-Trinitarian perspective, if you hold the Father as omniscient, you still have to grapple with Scriptures such as:

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Do you see how even denying the omniscience of the Son and the Spirit, cannot provide an escape door from the argument for God choosing and electing and as it relates to the attributes of omniscience and immutability with the Scripture above in mind?

John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.”

With the Scripture above, to deny the eternal Sonship of Christ, one must go through theological hoops in defining in what way, the Son and Father are one. Same goes for John 1:1; 14 and other passages.

If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

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