identity of the unborn

Robban · Feb 29, 2020

A year or two ago I renewed my passport,

besides photo I had to hold my two thumbs against a screen.

When I recieved my new passport there are no visible to the naked eye,
thumb prints.

So thumbprints are used as a form of indentification.

Now I wonder when at what stage does the unborn obtain fingerprints?

Also wonder if this is not an assurance that the unborn is if not yet a person as such,
but they have an identity.

Any thoughts on this?

Tolworth John · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
A year or two ago I renewed my passport,

besides photo I had to hold my two thumbs against a screen.

When I recieved my new passport there are no visible to the naked eye,
thumb prints.

So thumbprints are used as a form of indentification.

Now I wonder when at what stage does the unborn obtain fingerprints?

Also wonder if this is not an assurance that the unborn is if not yet a person as such,
but they have an identity.

Any thoughts on this?

Any pregnancy advice site will confirm that they are fully developed by 24 weeks.

Not David · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
A year or two ago I renewed my passport,

besides photo I had to hold my two thumbs against a screen.

When I recieved my new passport there are no visible to the naked eye,
thumb prints.

So thumbprints are used as a form of indentification.

Now I wonder when at what stage does the unborn obtain fingerprints?

Also wonder if this is not an assurance that the unborn is if not yet a person as such,
but they have an identity.

Any thoughts on this?

You know there are multiple forms of identification right?

Darkhorse · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
So thumbprints are used as a form of indentification.

Now I wonder when at what stage does the unborn obtain fingerprints?

Also wonder if this is not an assurance that the unborn is if not yet a person as such,
but they have an identity.

Any thoughts on this?

Excellent point.

Of course, DNA is an even more detailed and certain marker of identity, and it's present from the instant of conception.

Like it or not, the two unique individuals become one unique individual at that moment.

If people can't handle that truth, then there is no hope for them.

BNR32FAN · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
A year or two ago I renewed my passport,

besides photo I had to hold my two thumbs against a screen.

When I recieved my new passport there are no visible to the naked eye,
thumb prints.

So thumbprints are used as a form of indentification.

Now I wonder when at what stage does the unborn obtain fingerprints?

Also wonder if this is not an assurance that the unborn is if not yet a person as such,
but they have an identity.

Any thoughts on this?

I think fingerprints are irrelevant to a person’s identity. If a person is born without fingers do they not have an identity?

Robban · Feb 29, 2020

Darkhorse said:
Excellent point.

Of course, DNA is an even more detailed and certain marker of identity, and it's present from the instant of conception.

Like it or not, the two unique individuals become one unique individual at that moment.

If people can't handle that truth, then there is no hope for them.

I am sure I read somewhere, few years back now,

that there was a case where a pair of twins shared the same DNA but had different fingerprints.

Robban · Feb 29, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I think fingerprints are irrelevant to a person’s identity. If a person is born without fingers do they not have an identity?

There are prints on the soles of the feet too.

Sabertooth · Feb 29, 2020

Darkhorse said:
Of course, DNA is an even more detailed and certain marker of identity, and it's present from the instant of conception.

Monozygotic [identical] twins share the same DNA, but have different fingerprints.

BNR32FAN said:
If a person is born without fingers do they not have an identity?

Newborns are identified by their foot prints. Retinal scans (and other biometrics) work on the same principle.

timothyu · Feb 29, 2020

“When I was a fetus, I used to sneak out at night when my mother was sleeping. I figured I should start stealing stuff while I still had no fingerprints.”

― Steven Wright

Robban · Feb 29, 2020

timothyu said:
“When I was a fetus, I used to sneak out at night when my mother was sleeping. I figured I should start stealing stuff while I still had no fingerprints.”

― Steven Wright

That was in the good old days,

later on gloves were advisable.

SkyWriting · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
A year or two ago I renewed my passport,

besides photo I had to hold my two thumbs against a screen.

When I recieved my new passport there are no visible to the naked eye,
thumb prints.

So thumbprints are used as a form of identification.

Now I wonder when at what stage does the unborn obtain fingerprints?

Also wonder if this is not an assurance that the unborn is if not yet a person as such,
but they have an identity.

Any thoughts on this?

Thay have passports, ID's, Unique DNA, and a destiny.
We don't know what that destiny is.
I've been at the hospital while two twins were born at 450 grams each
and at the grave of the third who was strangled during birth.
We don't know what our destiny is till we arrive there.
But we can plan.

redleghunter · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
Any thoughts on this?

Yes. At what point in human being fetal development do we have DNA?

redleghunter · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
I am sure I read somewhere, few years back now,

that there was a case where a pair of twins shared the same DNA but had different fingerprints.

And?

redleghunter · Feb 29, 2020

Sabertooth said:
Monozygotic [identical] twins share the same DNA, but have different fingerprints.

Newborns are identified by their foot prints. Retinal scans (and other biometrics) work on the same principle.

But a quadruple amputee does not just lose their “personhood” right. So the entire premise of finger prints and footprints is quite irrelevant.

Robban · Feb 29, 2020

redleghunter said:
But a quadruple amputee does not just lose their “personhood” right. So the entire premise of finger prints and footprints is quite irrelevant.

It is about the not yet born.

redleghunter · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
It is about the not yet born.

Why does it matter the location of the human being?

Sabertooth · Feb 29, 2020

redleghunter said:
But a quadruple amputee does not just lose their “personhood” right. So the entire premise of finger prints and footprints is quite irrelevant.

They are identifiers even after having been removed. One's personhood is not contingent on retaining them. We will still be ourselves even after we have abandoned our fleshly bodies altogether (whether to glory or judgment).

redleghunter · Feb 29, 2020

Sabertooth said:
They are identifiers even after having been removed. One's personhood is not contingent on retaining them. We will still be ourselves even after we have abandoned our fleshly bodies altogether (whether to glory or judgment).

I get that. That is why it is at fertilization where we have a determined identification of a human being. We have human DNA from that point onward.

It does not matter if that DNA is shared among twins, they are both human beings biologically at that point.

Robban · Feb 29, 2020

redleghunter said:
Why does it matter the location of the human being?

Because that is what the thread is about, the unborn,

there are differences of opinion as to whether they can be disposed of or not.

redleghunter · Feb 29, 2020

Robban said:
there are differences of opinion as to whether they can be disposed of or not.

Of course there are differences of opinion regarding when a human being in the womb can be killed. Most are not based on any objective standards.

Inescapable is the settled science of embryology. We are human beings at fertilization.

Therefore the debate comes down to whether one sees human life in the womb as morally equal to all other human life outside the womb.

If the answer is “no” then the position is a subjective determination of a sub-human status of the human fetus.

identity of the unborn

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