Ida

PreachersWife2004 said:

Next they'll find something that will affirm that we are all actually from the planet Mars.

I think God is "planting" this stuff just to make them look silly.

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Do you really think that? Why would God want to confuse people by creating 'proof' of things that are not true?
It doesn't seem to fit with His character, somehow. Why would a loving Father who desires that all men should be saved deliberately try to confuse people?

Why is it that all but a very small minority of creationist are woefully uneducated about even what the theory of evolution is? Why do they make sure absurd statements like "if we came from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys"? Why has ignorance become so "cool" in both conservative and Christian circles? Why are some of the smartest scientist alive both Christian, and "Darwinist"?

There is plenty of independent lines of evidence that only make sense when viewed in the evolutionary model. This information is not hidden, it is available at any museum, library and on a great number of websites. Professionals in the academic field have pretty much given up on debating because they know it is like trying to explain the world is round to a Muslim, utterly pointless. This is a good thing because with understanding provided by the theory a great many medical advances would have never been made. From animal testing to ring vaccinations in the irradiation of Smallpox there is no doubt that evolution has happened and IS happening.

Thanks for editing

Not all conservative Christians are anti-evolution... certainly in Britain they would be in the minority.
We are all, I think, creationists, in that we all believe that God created the universe. However, I think there are differences of opinion as to the time scale and the mechanism used.
I am a scientist, and I certainly don't deny the fact that evolution on some scale can be seen to occur. I don't think that anyone actually believes that the theory of evolution claims that we descended from monkeys (or lemurs). But there is a huge range of beliefs even within the 'conservative' fold.

Good point Matthew, we add fuel to the fire when christians make incorrect statements. As I understand it, the theory of evolution doesn't infact state that we evolved from apes, but that humans and apes (and Lemurs, and all mamals) share an ancient ancester. So from what I understand, this discovery doesn't necessarily ruin evolutionary theory.
Also, I don't think anyone - christian or not - denys the scientific fact of natural selection. Natural selection is scientific because it is observable and recordable. And as I understand it, natural selection is the vehicle of evolutionary theory. I do believe that there is a distinction, and an important one at that.

Now, none of this impacts my faith. I don't subscribe to darwinian evolutionary theory at all. And I am yet to see anything that challenges this.

And this new Ida thing, I haven't really read much about it, but the snippets of news coverage I have seen hailing a 'new missing link' don't worry me in the slightest. We've had missing links come and go before with very little impact...

Matthewj1985 said:

Why is it that all but a very small minority of creationist are woefully uneducated about even what the theory of evolution is? Why do they make sure absurd statements like "if we came from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys"? Why has ignorance become so "cool" in both conservative and Christian circles? Why are some of the smartest scientist alive both Christian, and "Darwinist"?

There is plenty of independent lines of evidence that only make sense when viewed in the evolutionary model. This information is not hidden, it is available at any museum, library and on a great number of websites. Professionals in the academic field have pretty much given up on debating because they know it is like trying to explain the world is round to a Muslim, utterly pointless. This is a good thing because with understanding provided by the theory a great many medical advances would have never been made. From animal testing to ring vaccinations in the irradiation of Smallpox there is no doubt that evolution has happened and IS happening.

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I find this statement absurd and hypocritical. He states that Christians make statements out of ignorance and while that is true so do ignorant atheist make outlandish statements about Christians.

Secondly evolutions don't seem to understand that creationist don't question every part of so called evolution. We have no problem with micro-evolution as that is scientifically verifiable as he demonstrated above. However, macro-evolution is a naturalistic dogma which cannot be scientifically tested and/or reproduced. Why is that so hard to accept?

I am not claiming to be all scholarly or brilliant, but when I see these laps of honesty and see clear aims to push a dogma I have a bone to pick with them.

-~Truth_N_Trust~- said:

<snip>Also, I don't think anyone - christian or not - denys the scientific fact of natural selection. Natural selection is scientific because it is observable and recordable. And as I understand it, natural selection is the vehicle of evolutionary theory. I do believe that there is a distinction, and an important one at that.

Now, none of this impacts my faith. I don't subscribe to darwinian evolutionary theory at all. And I am yet to see anything that challenges this.

And this new Ida thing, I haven't really read much about it, but the snippets of news coverage I have seen hailing a 'new missing link' don't worry me in the slightest. We've had missing links come and go before with very little impact...

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totally agree!

ReformedChapin said:

I find this statement absurd and hypocritical. He states that Christians make statements out of ignorance and while that is true so do ignorant atheist make outlandish statements about Christians.

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You are 100% right but I don't see how that has anything to do with the topic at hand. How is it hypocritical since I am not an atheist?

ReformedChapin said:

Secondly evolutions don't seem to understand that creationist don't question every part of so called evolution. We have no problem with micro-evolution as that is scientifically verifiable as he demonstrated above. However, macro-evolution is a naturalistic dogma which cannot be scientifically tested and/or reproduced. Why is that so hard to accept?

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Because it is not at all supported by anything but a very narrow view of the bible. Macro-evolution HAS been observed and there are many examples of it. Can you produce a model that describes everything we see on earth as well as evolution? No one in the last 200 years has been able to and in that time every single discovery made fits perfectly into the evolutionary model. You are welcome to believe what you want but please remember much of modern medicine is based on evolution so if it never happened make sure you are not using any drugs that were tested on primates because...well...according to you they should not exist. The reason we test with primates instead of say, lizards, is because we are very closely related to them.

ReformedChapin said:

I am not claiming to be all scholarly or brilliant, but when I see these laps of honesty and see clear aims to push a dogma I have a bone to pick with them.

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No one is pushing dogma, every claim made is VERIFIABLE. Google is your friend, do the research.

Matthewj1985 said:

You are 100&#37; right but I don't see how that has anything to do with the topic at hand. How is it hypocritical since I am not an atheist?



Because it is not at all supported by anything but a very narrow view of the bible. Macro-evolution HAS been observed and there are many examples of it. Can you produce a model that describes everything we see on earth as well as evolution? No one in the last 200 years has been able to and in that time every single discovery made fits perfectly into the evolutionary model. You are welcome to believe what you want but please remember much of modern medicine is based on evolution so if it never happened make sure you are not using any drugs that were tested on primates because...well...according to you they should not exist. The reason we test with primates instead of say, lizards, is because we are very closely related to them.



No one is pushing dogma, every claim made is VERIFIABLE. Google is your friend, do the research.

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This is the common rhetoric I see with most naturalist, kicking and screaming about evolution without producing evidence. Macro-evolution is not verifiable no matter how much they kick and scream. They cannot produce and experiment that creates a changing of one species to another. Secondly because we have similar genetic traits, that doesn't imply that one specie evolved from another but have a similar genetics designed from God. Their conclusions are based on their own assumed paradigm.

The fact that we have drugs that we can manufacture and use show that the world is designed. God gave us the natural world to operate and work with so that it can aid us.

Lemurs are cute~~almost as cute as Bush Babies




they'd be cool pets I bet..

Sorry, I posted here by mistake. I did not read the rules and figured that since I was "conservative" and "Christian" I could post here.

PreachersWife2004 said:

Next they'll find something that will affirm that we are all actually from the planet Mars.

I think God is "planting" this stuff just to make them look silly.

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Beckie, have you forgotten already? Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. This was very popular a few years ago.

MrJim said:

Lemurs are cute~~almost as cute as Bush Babies

they'd be cool pets I bet..

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Cool fact. Did you know recently wild chimps have figured out how to sharpen the ends of sticks with their teeth? They use these spears when they find hollowed out trees because that is where Bush Babies sleep during the day time. The Chimps will ram the spear into the hole, bring it up and either sniff or taste the tip for blood. The crazy thing is that wild Chimp populations are actually TEACHING other groups of chimps to do this. Seems awful human to me.......

Belief in the bible as the inerrant word of God is not at all a prerequisite of Christanity. To say it is would be to call every single one of Jesus' disciples and pretty much every Christian in the 1st century a heretic.

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I do believe the belief that the Bible being the divine word- of- God is a prerequisite of Christianity. See 2 Timothy 3:16. If you don't believe that verse, why do you believe anything else that is written in the Bible? And you can't call the 1st century Christians heretics because they didn't have the Bible as we have it. They had various writings. Some churches had only the gospel of Matthew, some only Mark or Luke or John. The Bible as we know it didn't come to be the collection of books it is today until a few centuries later, so to call Jesus' disciples or 1st century Christians "heretics" is stupid, because they didn't even have the same Bible we do, and you have offered no proof that they doubted the authenticity of the writings.

It is pretty widely known that more than a handful of books of the bible are not written by who they claim and still others are credited to people who did not write them

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Which books? This is a pretty baseless claim. The New Testament books, which I assume is what you are referring to here, were either written by an apostle of Jesus or a student of that apostle.

I am no more "pro-gay" than I am "pro-abortion". I think homosexuals should have the same rights as every American and like black people, should not be discriminated against because of the way they were born.

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I don't think it has been conclusively proven that homosexuals are born that way. They also are not discriminated against. They have the same rights as everybody else. They just can't have their civil unions be called marriages because from a religious standpoint, and I say this because other religions also teach that marriage is between one woman and one man.

Homosexuals can get all of the protections a marriage grants through other legal means. But they want the word marriage to legitimize their behavior. If they can be "married" then they can be more like everybody else and be more accepted. That is their thinking. But I think the homosexuals are really out for themselves on this one, because I don't see them pushing for equality for all people. What about those heterosexual people who never get married? They're in an even worse position than the homosexuals, so if the homosexuals were really concerned about equal rights for all, they would actually be pursuing equal rights for all. And usually, it's not about love when it comes to gay marriage, it's about "what do I get when my partner dies?" It's about inheritance and property issues more than love or lust or whatever it is they claim to have for each other. Also, not all homosexuals want to be married, it's a very small percentage of a very small minority that even want this, yet this is the big platform of the homosexual movement, gay marriage.

An EXTREME level of ignorance in regards to biology is on display here. There is no argument there, when statements like "if we came from monkeys then why are there still monkeys" is a strawman arguement in regards to biology

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Who here is making that argument? You rail on about this as if someone in this thread is actually saying this. I haven't seen anyone state this or take this line of attack in regards to this debate. I know it's a popular saying among the Way of the Master hosts, but they're not here.

just the same as "since David Koresh was killed in Waco, Jesus is not really God". That last statement shows a profound lack of knowlage about even the fundamentals of what Christanity is, no different than the statements about evolution here.

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So are you here to contribute anything positive or are you here to complain and whine about others? Because it seems like you do more of the latter than the former.

Matthewj1985 said:

Cool fact. Did you know recently wild chimps have figured out how to sharpen the ends of sticks with their teeth? They use these spears when they find hollowed out trees because that is where Bush Babies sleep during the day time. The Chimps will ram the spear into the hole, bring it up and either sniff or taste the tip for blood. The crazy thing is that wild Chimp populations are actually TEACHING other groups of chimps to do this. Seems awful human to me.......

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How many humans are jamming spears into hollow trees and then tasting the tips for blood and then teaching other humans to do this?

Criada said:

Well, not my understanding... I thought moderation was by post, but, no longer my concern.
I would appreciate it though if those of you who keep bringing homosexuality into everything could distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual activity.. the latter may be a sin, the former is not! Unless temptation is a sin nowadays.

Sorry, off topic... I'll shut up now.

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(((HUGS))) I guess I just assume that people understand that I mean homosexual activity and not just the state of being.

Multiple posts have been deleted as off topic and the thread reopened. Going forward please review the OP and remember the following CF rules when posting:

• Forum members who are not a member of that denomination may not debate in that denomination's area.
• Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose; submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.

of equal importance

Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

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If this thread cannot proceed peacefully and according to the rules we will be forced to close this thread permanently.

desmalia said:

OK, someone was going to post this eventually, so might as well be me.
What does everyone think of the "Ida" discovery?

Scientists: 'Missing Link' Fossil Not Worth Media Hype - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News - FOXNews.com

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Note: I am a Young Earth Creationist.

In my estimation:
Ida is a very wonderfully preserved fossil* of an early Lemur** receiving far far more hype and absurd publicity and rhetoric than it deserves.
She was bought for a million dollars and they seem to be milking her for all she is worth.

*Even maintaining some imprint of fleshy material and the contents of her stomach! Showing rapid and immediate burial in what would be presumed to be a catastrophic manner!

**She is lacking the fused teeth and warped claw of a modern Lemur, that have since been used for grooming.

And for humour:

Matthewj1985 said:

Why is it that all but a very small minority of creationist are woefully uneducated about even what the theory of evolution is? Why do they make sure absurd statements like "if we came from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys"? Why has ignorance become so "cool" in both conservative and Christian circles? Why are some of the smartest scientist alive both Christian, and "Darwinist"?

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So you are admitting that there are Creationists who are educated about evolution yet still Creationists?

I would point you to the lists of arguments prominent Creationist organizations say should not be used:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/arguments-we-dont-use

http://creation.com/arguments-we-think-creationists-should-not-use

There is plenty of independent lines of evidence that only make sense when viewed in the evolutionary model. This information is not hidden, it is available at any museum, library and on a great number of websites.

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I would certainly disagree that they "only make sense" in the Evolutionary model.

Professionals in the academic field have pretty much given up on debating because they know it is like trying to explain the world is round to a Muslim, utterly pointless.

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That is purely an ill founded excuse.

This is a good thing because with understanding provided by the theory a great many medical advances would have never been made.

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Like what? Pasteurization? Wait... no a Creationist invented that.
The MRI machine? Wait... no... a Creationist invented that too.

From animal testing to ring vaccinations in the irradiation of Smallpox there is no doubt that evolution has happened and IS happening.

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Bait and Switch fallacy.

Those are descriptions of minor changes occurring in the genome that are largely negative and reduce information. This is not an upward onward evolution from one kind to another but rather a devolution or specification of already existing information resulting in a better adapted creature in certain situations, via natural selection.

-~Truth_N_Trust~- said:

Also, I don't think anyone - christian or not - denys the scientific fact of natural selection.

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Certainly.

Natural selection is scientific because it is observable and recordable.

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Indeed.

And as I understand it, natural selection is the vehicle of evolutionary theory.

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In fact, while it is considered the vehicle of evolution, it really isn't.
At best it would act as a dead stall. It selects information that already exists. It doesn't generate new body plans and new information.
Rather, most often, it actually eliminates information and reduces the genetic variety of a population by selecting a small sub-set that may have some minor advantage often based on a loss of a feature of some sort.

Matthewj1985 said:

Sorry, I posted here by mistake. I did not read the rules and figured that since I was "conservative" and "Christian" I could post here.

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If you are conservative and Christian... you can post here.
Who kicked you out? Nothing in the rules indicated that you couldn't post here if you are Conservative and Christian.