I simply cannot believe this.

Buttermilk · Dec 23, 2007

They're a divisive bunch of something I cannot name on CF.

I lived in Glasgow for a while and had to live with "marchers" coming past my window. Heck I've had flatmates open the window and play songs from the opposing side at them.

It's disgusting really, the capacity for human bigotry, I really hope kids aren't taken in by this rebranding of prejudice, and that they go the way of the dodo as we as a society "grow up".

As a Weggie I concur

THESE MARCHES SHOULD BE BANNED - THEY ARE NOTHING BUT TROUBLE

non-religious · Dec 23, 2007

I have to admit that I am very ignorant of the facts regarding the Orange Order. Where I live they are planning a march and there has been a protest against this and feelings are running very high.

I remember hearing a man opposed to the Orangemen comparing their marches to that of the KKK walking through Harlem in NY. Obviously that's one man's opinion, but is it really that divisive? Or is that a really dumb question?

ScottishJohn · Dec 23, 2007

Tyndale said:
They follow a reformed Protestant faith, they aren't ashamed of it either and neither should they be.

Thats why their bars are open on a sunday morning in competition to the church...

Take a roll call and see where their real priorities lie.

Tyndale said:
They practice a faith different to Roman Catholicism, so what?

I don't see any convincing link between the orange order and any religion. There is a large gap between what they profess and what they practise.

Tyndale said:
They don't allow roman catholics to marry their members, so what?

So what? So that is proof of bigotry and also of an about turn on your part:

Tyndale said:
holysee said:

Are Orangemen allowed to marry Roman Catholics whilst retaining their membership

Click to expand...

Yes, next question

Either you were mistaken or attempting to mislead us.

Look at the battle they celebrate, it doesn' really signify what they seem to think it does. There were catholics and protestants on both sides of the battle, and it was less about a catholic vs protestant, it wasn't even english vs irish, as it was about one mob in power vs another mob out of power. Sounds familiar.

Less than 2000 of the 36,000 Williamite army were from Ulster. Most of the rest were from mainland Europe.

ScottishJohn · Dec 23, 2007

non-religious said:
I have to admit that I am very ignorant of the facts regarding the Orange Order. Where I live they are planning a march and there has been a protest against this and feelings are running very high.

I remember hearing a man opposed to the Orangemen comparing their marches to that of the KKK walking through Harlem in NY. Obviously that's one man's opinion, but is it really that divisive? Or is that a really dumb question?

All the marches I have witnessed have been distinctly unpleasant occasions. There is always a fairly ugly atmosphere, and a distinct air of provocation. My mum was held up by a march once, she was late for a hospital appointment, and was stuck on the wrong side of the road across from the hospital. She explained this to one of the policemen marshalling the march, and he let her pass between two of the groups, the second group caught up with her before she got a across, and one of the guys at the front gave her a good shove, almost sent her sprawling, just because she had the cheek to cross the street. Noone came to help her, noone apologised, more than a few people laughed.

The most divisive marches are where the order insist that they should march through areas which are predominantly catholic. There never seems to be a good reason for this, other than that it is their 'legal right'.

Kehaar · Dec 24, 2007

ScottishJohn said:
All the marches I have witnessed have been distinctly unpleasant occasions. There is always a fairly ugly atmosphere, and a distinct air of provocation. My mum was held up by a march once, she was late for a hospital appointment, and was stuck on the wrong side of the road across from the hospital. She explained this to one of the policemen marshalling the march, and he let her pass between two of the groups, the second group caught up with her before she got a across, and one of the guys at the front gave her a good shove, almost sent her sprawling, just because she had the cheek to cross the street. Noone came to help her, noone apologised, more than a few people laughed.

A similar thing happened to my friend and her daughter for daring to cross the road while a march was on. From what I remember the abuse they got had them both in tears.

Cjwinnit · Dec 24, 2007

Kehaar said:
A similar thing happened to my friend and her daughter for daring to cross the road while a march was on. From what I remember the abuse they got had them both in tears.

A little hypocritical of the marchers and supporters considering they are marching for the right to a free highway..

Buttermilk · Dec 24, 2007

Cjwinnit said:
A little hypocritical of the marchers and supporters considering they are marching for the right to a free highway..

Most of them have no idea why they are actually marching

holysee · Dec 25, 2007

Buttermilk said:
Most of them have no idea why they are actually marching

The reason they are marching is anti-Catholic bigotry and they know that very well indeed.

Buttermilk · Dec 25, 2007

holysee said:
The reason they are marching is anti-Catholic bigotry and they know that very well indeed.

Yes I realise that, but most of them have no idea of the actual history.

Tyndale · Dec 26, 2007

Tyndale said:
They don't allow roman catholics to marry their members, so what?

ScottishJohn said:
So what? So that is proof of bigotry and also of an about turn on your part:

Either you were mistaken or attempting to mislead us.

I wasn't attempting to mislead you John, I posted Yes in haste. It would be more correct to say that the issue is being debated within the Orange order whether to continue with this law or modernise it, in accordance to Vatican changes regarding religion and marriage.

You stated that the law is proof of bigotry, well at first glance it sounds that way, but lets look at the law in more depth to see if it's really bigoted or if it actually protects the religious rights of Protestants and Catholics. When the Orange Order made that law that an Orangeman can't marry a Roman Catholic, the Roman Catholic church already had a law in place that the children of mixed marriages had to be brought up Roman Catholic. This rule encouraged the ethnic cleansing of the 'other' religion. In the Rep of Ireland it virtually wiped out Protestantism, decreased it from 10% in the 1900's to 3% in the 1980's. This law meant that the Parent who wasn't Roman Catholic could not teach their own children their own religion, the children whom you helped bring into the world were not allowed to learn the faith of the 'other' parent because of a Roman Catholic law. One could say that this law was like a form of religious punishment for the spouse who wasn't Roman Catholic. The nature of this law means that one religion has to suffer over and above the other, It's a law which wipes out and destroys other religions.

Now compare that RC law to the Orange Order law, where they don't encourage mixed marriages, are they actually guilty of this bigotry John? Have they created a law which is as damaging to another religion than the law created by the Roman Catholics? You'll find that this law of the Orange Order actually prevents one religion from gaining over another and leaves the demographics of religion down to God.

Makes you wonder why God commanded us, "Be ye not unequally yoked together" It would seem God's law is the best, he knows the pitfalls of mixed marriage, he knows that one religion will set rules up which undermine the other, ultimately undermining his Godly plan.

Tyndale · Dec 26, 2007

ScottishJohn said:
All the marches I have witnessed have been distinctly unpleasant occasions.

name them John, i'm sure Grand master of that march would be more than happy to give you a reply. that's if it was an orange march you were talking about

ScottishJohn said:
There is always a fairly ugly atmosphere, and a distinct air of provocation.

Where are you watching these marches John? sounds like you're in the republican protest areas

ScottishJohn said:
My mum was held up by a march once, she was late for a hospital appointment, and was stuck on the wrong side of the road across from the hospital. She explained this to one of the policemen marshalling the march, and he let her pass between two of the groups, the second group caught up with her before she got a across, and one of the guys at the front gave her a good shove, almost sent her sprawling, just because she had the cheek to cross the street. Noone came to help her, noone apologised, more than a few people laughed.

Sorry to hear about you Mother's harassement, there are idiots at every pupblic gathering. You should name the march, especially if it was an Orange Order march ans they would be able to follow up you mother's incident, along with the police ?

ScottishJohn said:
The most divisive marches are where the order insist that they should march through areas which are predominantly catholic. There never seems to be a good reason for this, other than that it is their 'legal right'.

If the area was full of Catholic immigrants, do you think they would carry on like the Catholic Irish, blocking legal marches, rioting and then playing the victim by lying down on the road? or would those Catholics actually come out to view the march, like the Catholic Irish did in the 60's, before IRA/Sinn Fein filled their heads with sectarian rubbish ?

ScottishJohn · Dec 26, 2007

Tyndale said:
I wasn't attempting to mislead you John, I posted Yes in haste. It would be more correct to say that the issue is being debated within the Orange order whether to continue with this law or modernise it, in accordance to Vatican changes regarding religion and marriage.

So you were mistaken.

Tyndale said:
You stated that the law is proof of bigotry, well at first glance it sounds that way, but lets look at the law in more depth to see if it's really bigoted or if it actually protects the religious rights of Protestants and Catholics. When the Orange Order made that law that an Orangeman can't marry a Roman Catholic, the Roman Catholic church already had a law in place that the children of mixed marriages had to be brought up Roman Catholic. This rule encouraged the ethnic cleansing of the 'other' religion. In the Rep of Ireland it virtually wiped out Protestantism, decreased it from 10% in the 1900's to 3% in the 1980's. This law meant that the Parent who wasn't Roman Catholic could not teach their own children their own religion, the children whom you helped bring into the world were not allowed to learn the faith of the 'other' parent because of a Roman Catholic law. One could say that this law was like a form of religious punishment for the spouse who wasn't Roman Catholic. The nature of this law means that one religion has to suffer over and above the other, It's a law which wipes out and destroys other religions.

Now compare that RC law to the Orange Order law, where they don't encourage mixed marriages, are they actually guilty of this bigotry John? Have they created a law which is as damaging to another religion than the law created by the Roman Catholics? You'll find that this law of the Orange Order actually prevents one religion from gaining over another and leaves the demographics of religion down to God.

Makes you wonder why God commanded us, "Be ye not unequally yoked together" It would seem God's law is the best, he knows the pitfalls of mixed marriage, he knows that one religion will set rules up which undermine the other, ultimately undermining his Godly plan.

You have the Orange Order - they will kick you out if you marry a catholic, and you have the Roman Catholic Church who will ask you to raise your child catholic if you marry a protestant. Not the same at all.

I was at a beatiful 'mixed marriage' (only in Northern Ireland and Glasgow is a marriage between two Christians deemed mixed) a couple of years ago, my Uncle (a protestant) married a Northern Irish girl (a catholic), at St Brigids just off the Malone road. Because of the mixed nature of the congregation, the priest allowed my father - a protestant minister - to give the homily. When it came to the mass, obviously the protestants couldn't take mass, so there were two lines side by side, one to receive mass from the priest, and one to receive a blessing from my dad. Unfortunately the church part of a wedding is often hurried through to get onto the serious business of drinking eating and dancing. In this case however the whole wedding party spent a lot of the rest of the day discussing how beautiful and meaningful the service had been.

Had we all been Orangemen, we would have been stuck with an awkward mess, none of us attending the service and bad blood all round. As far as I am concerned whether the child is brought up catholic or protestant is not that important. Either way it is being brought up as a Christian.

ScottishJohn · Dec 26, 2007

Tyndale said:
name them John, i'm sure Grand master of that march would be more than happy to give you a reply. that's if it was an orange march you were talking about

I'm not interested in wasting my time with 'Grand Masters', and I don't note down lodge numbers in my notebook every time I'm held up by a parade just so I can tell someone how unpleasant these marches are. If they wanted to run a respectable organisation then they could. They don't need me to tell them that they are presiding over a bunch of thugs. Plenty of people have complained regularly about the behaviour of Orangemen, all they get is the same nonsense about the right to march.

Tyndale said:
Where are you watching these marches John? sounds like you're in the republican protest areas

I'm not watching them, I'm being inconvenienced by them. And they happen all over Glasgow. Until October I worked about 100 yards from Olympia House and every year in July the kerbs and lamposts are red white and blue, and Bridgeton Cross is a sea of rubbish and we all pay to clean it up.

Tynedale said:
Sorry to hear about you Mother's harassement, there are idiots at every pupblic gathering.

The Orange Order have more than their fair share. It wasn't like it was one individual. There were squads of people sporting sashes all around, and no one stepped forward to help her. Not exactly the protestant good samaritans...

Tyndale said:
You should name the march, especially if it was an Orange Order march ans they would be able to follow up you mother's incident, along with the police ?

The police were standing right there. This is a common occurence. The order do nothing about it - it is their members who are the offenders why would they?

I simply cannot believe this.

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