I simply cannot believe this.

Tyndale · Dec 19, 2007

Tyndale said:
Tell me, what is it that insults the locals? The Orange Order have a traditional march along the Queens highway, it's a legal march where they proudly celebrate their tradition playing Christian songs? Tell me, what's so insulting about that?

holysee said:
The "Sash my Father Wore" and "Derry's Walls" are Christian songs? The Orange Order is a specifically anti-Catholic organisation , look at this-
http://www.lol.1960.50megs.com/custom6.html about the qualifications an Orangeman should have-

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, verdana, arial, helvetica]He should uphold and defend the Protestant religion and sincerely desire and endeavour to propagate its doctrines and precepts. He should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act or ceremony of Popish Worship. He should by all lawful means resist the ascendancy of that Church, its encroachments and the extension of its power[/FONT]

Since the residents of the Garvaghy Road are overwhelmingly Catholic a triumphalist noisy parade by anti-Catholics right through the middle of their neighbourhood is by definition insulting. Not to mention disruptive to our Popish worship since Orange Walks have an uncanny habit of going pass Catholic Churches during Mass. Even if the Orangemen themselves obeyed their own rule [FONT=Trebuchet MS, verdana, arial, helvetica]ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions or sentiments towards Roman Catholics[/FONT] their march followers walking through the neighbourhood, drunk abusive and violent do not.

First of all the Garvaghy road is a large area, it's has many residents of different religion within, however it's only a section of the road which tends to block legal parades and create sectarian tension. Funnily enough it's the IRA/Sinn Fein dominated area of the road, which can't accept the Protestant culture. The residents of this IRA/SINN Fein dominated area of the Garvaghy road are forced by the IRA/Sinn Fein leaders to protest and riot to stop the Christian parade getting past.

I know a man from the Garvaghy road who plays traditional music competitively all around the British Isles, from Ireland to England and he was approached by the local IRA/Sinn Fein thug in the Garvaghy road not to enter British competitions in the mainland or else his house would be targeted. That goes to show the hatred and level of determination that this organisation wishes to oppose in order to get their dream of a 32 county socialist republican Catholic Ireland.

The Orange Order is unashamedly Protestant, because we Protestants have nothing to be ashamed off. We oppose the Vatican dictating how we become a Christian, so live with it. We happen to share the same land here in the UK, we share the same streets, so what gives you the God-given right to oppose a legal march? These Orange Order marches are legal, they're also traditional. So, why can't you accept legality?

ScottishJohn · Dec 19, 2007

Tyndale said:
Yes, next question

Wiki said:
Members are required to be Protestant with a belief in the Trinity. This excludes Catholics, Unitarians and certain other Christian denominations and all non-Christians.[23] Most jurisdictions require both the spouse and parents of potential applicants to be Protestant, although the Grand Lodge can be appealed to make exceptions for converts. Members of the Order face the threat of expulsion for attending any Catholic religious ceremonies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Institution#Requirements_for_entry

Tyndale · Dec 19, 2007

you believe everything Wiki tells you?

this isn't the first issue you and I raised over Wiki, you seem to use it quite a lot John for your information.

ScottishJohn · Dec 19, 2007

Tyndale said:
you believe everything Wiki tells you?

this isn't the first issue you and I raised over Wiki, you seem to use it quite a lot John for your information.

Any source is an improvement over an unsourced opinion. If you think Wiki has it wrong on this occasion then bring the proof.

While you go here is another site:

Orange order Myths said:
Expulsion: "Any member dishonoring the Institution by marrying a Roman Catholic shall be expelled; and every Member shall use his best endeavors to prevent and discountenance the marriage of Protestants with Roman Catholics..."

http://www.inac.org/irishhistory/orange

That is two sources to your none.

Tyndale · Dec 19, 2007

you've got the wrong end of the stick John. Because Wiki has it wrong first time doesn't mean I or anyone else should help them with the information they already have. If Wiki can't be bothered researching their information for a reliable source, they don't deserve to be given information to correct their errors.

Pogue · Dec 19, 2007

So could we see any sources which say that Orangemen don't bar non-Protestants, or people with non-Protestant families?

Tyndale · Dec 19, 2007

Pogue said:
So could we see any sources which say that Orangemen don't bar non-Protestants, or people with non-Protestant families?

It's a Protestant organisation Pogue, ONLY for PROTESTANTS.

if you're not Protestant, you ain't getting in , bye bye try somewhere else

uberd00b · Dec 19, 2007

They're a divisive bunch of something I cannot name on CF.

I lived in Glasgow for a while and had to live with "marchers" coming past my window. Heck I've had flatmates open the window and play songs from the opposing side at them.

It's disgusting really, the capacity for human bigotry, I really hope kids aren't taken in by this rebranding of prejudice, and that they go the way of the dodo as we as a society "grow up".

Pogue · Dec 19, 2007

Tyndale said:
It's a Protestant organisation Pogue, ONLY for PROTESTANTS.

if you're not Protestant, you ain't getting in , bye bye try somewhere else

So ScottishJohn's sources were actually correct in what they said, you were wrong when you said that there were errors, and all that arguing about whether wikipedia's a credible source was fairly pointless? Good, glad we've got that sorted.

ScottishJohn · Dec 19, 2007

Tyndale said:
you've got the wrong end of the stick John. Because Wiki has it wrong first time doesn't mean I or anyone else should help them with the information they already have. If Wiki can't be bothered researching their information for a reliable source, they don't deserve to be given information to correct their errors.

I wasn't necessarily asking you to help wiki. I was asking you to back up your statement with a source. Something you seem unwilling to do. I have a good idea why.

Allister · Dec 19, 2007

you believe everything Wiki tells you?

I'm a Wikipedian and I'm proud.

Just thought I'd butt in.

holysee · Dec 19, 2007

We can see the obligation of an Orangeman from http://www.freewebs.com/bramptonlol5/qualifications.htm

I swear that I am not, nor ever will be, a Roman Catholic or Papist; nor will I marry a Roman Catholic or Papist, nor educate my children, nor suffer them to be educated in the Roman Catholic Faith

And here is this happy tale from an Orange Lodge in the Occupied Six Counties http://www.lol1310.com/history.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] It was also in the 1970s that the Lodge engaged in a protest over the growing ecumenism in the established churches when a verbal protest was carried out at the platform proceedings against the Rev. Donald Gillies who had just aligned himself with the Roman priest at Holy Cross, Ardoyne, whose chapel had been damaged by fire. The countenancing of Romanism in any form or circumstance is an anathema to the Lodge, it was so then and is even more so today, hence it was the view of the Lodge that they had no alternative but to make the necessary challenges regarding the particular reverend gentleman and the circumstance he engaged in. [/FONT]

What else does this Lodge feel http://www.lol1310.com/beliefs.htm
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is that antichrist spoken of in scripture, the man of sin and son of perdition that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God. He is a false-christ and is no vicar of our Saviour and Lord on this earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rome and all her tentacle dioceses, is our enemy.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Roman Catholic Church, the papal system, is a mockery, a delusion and a snare.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Mass, the so called blessed Eucarist, is a blasphemy, an insult to the Lord Jesus Christ....

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]That ecumenicity in any degree is the enemy of true Protestantism, a sister to the harlot of Rome and more dangerous than any bullet or bomb as an attack on the protestant people of Ireland.
That any person, church or denomination that accepts Rome, its pontiff or any element of its existence as Christian in any degree, are in themselves apostate and not worthy of any recognition or acceptation as protestant[/FONT]

AllTalkNoAction · Dec 19, 2007

Speaking of bigoted & hurtful comments, what about this?

holysee · Dec 19, 2007

AllTalkNoAction said:
Speaking of bigoted & hurtful comments, what about this?

It is essentially a misreporting of this

Tyndale · Dec 23, 2007

Pogue said:
So ScottishJohn's sources were actually correct in what they said, you were wrong when you said that there were errors, and all that arguing about whether wikipedia's a credible source was fairly pointless? Good, glad we've got that sorted.

In some things they are correct, however I was replying to the piece John highlighted, "Most jurisdictions require both the spouse and parents of potential applicants to be Protestant, although the Grand Lodge can be appealed to make exceptions for converts."

The above quote isn't true.

Regarding the rule that a Protestant mustn't marry a Roman Catholic, this is true. The bible tells us, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" (2Cor.6v14)

The Orange Order upholds the beliefs of the reformed faith. They don't follow the traditions of the Roman Catholic church that works bring about justification, the O.O believe in justification through faith alone, this is the difference between a believer and non-believer. A believer has faith, a non-believer performs rituals.

Tyndale · Dec 23, 2007

here's a good video to leatrn what the Orange Order is really about. If you really want a balanced and honest view of their beliefs, instead of the sectarian/bigoted stuff that the media likes to blacken their name with, you'll find no better example.

This is the first of 3 clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKWgmr0lQ1A&feature=related

ScottishJohn · Dec 23, 2007

Yeah, if you want a 'balanced and honest view' listen to the propaganda - if you want the truth look at what they say and what they do. By their fruits you shall know them.

Tyndale · Dec 23, 2007

ScottishJohn said:
Yeah, if you want a 'balanced and honest view' listen to the propaganda - if you want the truth look at what they say and what they do. By their fruits you shall know them.

They follow a reformed Protestant faith, they aren't ashamed of it either and neither should they be. They practice a faith different to Roman Catholicism, so what? They don't allow roman catholics to marry their members, so what?

They apply to the government to march along the Queens highway as their unique form of publicity, instead of using Government money for tabloids etc, so what's wrong with that?...surely that's an ingenious way of advertising?.....if it was another organization that came up with this ingenious idea they would be publicised the world over, but sadly this organisation is Protestant and blacklisted by the general media as bigoted, so it's not.

Tyndale · Dec 23, 2007

21st Century Orangemen clip 2

A great insight into the bigoted, sectarian Orange Order. It's quite surprising how vicious this order can be, just take a look to see the nature of this sectarian beast, and the evil lurking from within. Yes, it's Protestant, pure Protestant evil, the goat slaying part should be avoided

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdaQ-9_mV30&feature=related

Buttermilk · Dec 23, 2007

Most members of the Orange Order have never been near a church in their life. They have no idea why they are participating in bigotted marches.

I simply cannot believe this.

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