I need help..

Christy4Christ said:

Hi,

I know that many of you are aware that I have been posting on a sort of anti-catholic board. One of the most anti-catholic people there just PMed me with a question. I am telling you I see her tone softening just a little, if I can come up with a good answer for her then I might be able to get through to her a little. I cannot answer it, I do not know my history or scripture well enough.

Here is her question:


In your study of the Bible, can you show me where any of the apostles defended the "Church" as a a a thing, a organization, a entity into itself? I would be interested to see this. I dont recall seeing this. I see that always, they defended the Gospel. I am sincere in my question... I have been thinking on this "I am a Catholic" thing that catholics seem to possess that I dont see my own self as possessing. I was having a conversation with P139 about this. I explained to him that I would be the first to speak against my denomination (if I had one) if I saw it as having heresey... that is because I am not a __________ fill in the blank. But I do not know a Catholic that is not a Catholic. It is just curious to me. Do you see this in the disciples? Did they defend the church as a corporate entity unto itself? What do you think? Is there some scripture youknow of that might show they did this. Certainly there was attack against the Apostolic Church from all sides in the first 100 years while the disciples lived.
Let me know what you know about this would you?

Click to expand...

Start with this : http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

AA, I wish it were possible for me to grasp the point of the question put to you. Do you think it would be helpful if this person read the Acts of the Apostles? The church history is right there written by Luke. An appreciation of the missionary work of Paul also is essential to understanding the difficulties faced by the early church. At Antioch, pagans were the ones who first used the term "Christians" to refer to followers of The Way (Acts 11:26). The Apostles called one another 'brethren." If the questioner is looking for evidence of the Apostles arguing against early heresies, then look to John (1 John 4; not the Gospel of John). Here he warns against a very early heresy that taught Christ was not fully human. I hope this helps. I don't want to ramble. God bless your work.

Like Toney said - the terms "Christian" "brethren" were used among the disciples. "The Way." I think that our friend at the BBS is forgetting that there were no denominations back then. And that in saying "I am a Christian" an ancient would have the same feeling as one of us today saying "I am a Catholic."
You might also point out their view of the Church, as "the pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Timothy 3:15). Ask her, "Where is that Church today?" Is it an invisible body of Christians who constantly disagree on theology, and rely on their own personal interpretations of Scripture? Or was that Church founded on the Rock, given the promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, given the Holy Spirit as a Helper and Guide. Maybe not in those exact words but I think you understand what I mean. (BTW I am not implying that Protestants are not part of the Church).

Christy

that is awesome . .I would not say just a little softening is going on . . it sounds like a hunger has been awakened! WOW!!


You might give this verse


Here it is in several translations:



Then something that helped me is to see what Jesus is saying to Peter when He gives Him the Keys of the Kingdom . . and without having to go into the debate of who or what the Rock is that Jesus said He would build His Church upon, describe the scene His words are set in . .


They are in Phillipi Ceassaria .. . .

There is a MASSIVE stone cliff that can't be missed . . on top of this cliff is a temple . . this is the temple of Apollo, the Son of Zeus!!

At the bottom is a yawning cave. . it is pretty large! and inside is a river running so deep, its depths had not been fathomed at the time of Christ . . and it was called "The Gates of Hades"!!!


Jesus was drawing a direct parallel of what He was saying about His Church to their surroundings . . and just as the this temple of Apollo was highly visible set on top this massive rock cliff, so woudl be His Church . . And He would protect His Church. . . .

Also, explaining the Keys of the Kingdom, and their Old Testament significance, and how they represented the authority of the King given to his Prime Minister in his absence, a very visible role, and how this role was given to Peter and to Peter alone (the pronoun used there is singular, not plural, so Jesus wasn't speaking to them all, just Peter when He said "to you I give the Keys of the kingdom" may also help her to see the really visibile reality of the Church, and how it is an entity . .


Peace in Him!

ps139 said:

Like Toney said - the terms "Christian" "brethren" were used among the disciples. "The Way." I think that our friend at the BBS is forgetting that there were no denominations back then. And that in saying "I am a Christian" an ancient would have the same feeling as one of us today saying "I am a Catholic."
You might also point out their view of the Church, as "the pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Timothy 3:15). Ask her, "Where is that Church today?" Is it an invisible body of Christians who constantly disagree on theology, and rely on their own personal interpretations of Scripture? Or was that Church founded on the Rock, given the promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, given the Holy Spirit as a Helper and Guide. Maybe not in those exact words but I think you understand what I mean. (BTW I am not implying that Protestants are not part of the Church).

Click to expand...

The disciples in Antioch were the first to call themselves "Christians". They also called themselves "Catholic" per St. Ignatius of Antioch.

Back in those days, if you were a follower of Christ, then you were a member of the Church and followed Her Holy Traditions, celebrated the Divine Liturgy, and partook of Her Holy Sacraments.

Do you know of a Catholic book that is similar to Becoming Orthodox by Father Peter Gillquist? His book was the story of how 2000 protestants returned to the ancient Church by studying the Holy Bible and the writings of the Holy Fathers. Perhaps Rome Sweet Home, by Scott Hahn would be the Catholic equivalent?