I know why Jesus has not returned yet!

MikeMcK · Jun 16, 2006

Christina M said:
Sorry Mike, but your post here: "OK. Now that we've established that Lismore doesn't know what is meant by "essentials of the faith", do you?" is pretty mean and unnecessary.

Dictionary definition of 'vitriol': Bitterly abusive feeling or expression

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Do you know what is meant by the phrase "essential doctrines of the faith"?

lismore · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
I'm sorry you feel that way.

Do you know what is meant by the phrase "essential doctrines of the faith"?

Do you Mike?

If you do, then be a dear and share it

probinson · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
I'm sorry you feel that way.

Do you know what is meant by the phrase "essential doctrines of the faith"?

Instead of asking all these people if they know what is meant by the phrase "essential doctrines of the faith", why don't you tell us what you think is meant by the phrase "essential doctrines of the faith".

MikeMcK · Jun 16, 2006

lismore said:
Actually it was me who asked for clarification and you who refused to give it:

I didn't refuse to clarify. I asked you what you did not understand precisely so that I could clarify it for you.

Rather than answering me, so that I might better know how to answer your question, you chose to give a smart aleck answer and then accuse me of not answering the question.

I didnt understand your statement at all, thats why I asked. Without giving clarification, you then started ranting and raving:

Actually, that's not true.

First of all, it is hardly "ranting and raving" to ask if someone knows (particularly a moderator who, of all opeople here, should know) what the essentials of the faith are.

Second, I did respond to your statement. I asked you exactly what it was that you were having a hard time with, so that I might beter address your question.

Now can you please explain your twice given statement on the churches and the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

I would like to, but I don't know what you want me to explain because, when I asked you what you wanted me to explain, you chose to play games instead.

MikeMcK · Jun 16, 2006

lismore said:
Do you Mike?

If you do, then be a dear and share it

While I normally do not care for copy and paste answers, I know that you will not believe anything I say, so I've chosen to let a well known and widely respected apologetics website answer on my behalf.Since I know that you won't believe anything I have to say, I've chosen to copy an explanation.

Before I put you on ignore, here you go:

The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith. They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, and 3) Resurrection of Christ, and 4) the gospel. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these four are the only ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential. A non-regenerate person, or a cultist (i.e., Mormon or Jehovah's Witness), will deny one or more of these essential doctrines. Please note that there are other derivative doctrines of scripture that become necessary also, the Trinity being one.

The Deity of Christ
1. <LI type=A>Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
  1. <LI type=i>1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
    1. <LI type=a>The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
    2. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
  2. John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
  3. Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)
2. Jesus is the proper object of faith
  1. <LI type=i>It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in. You must put your faith in the proper object. Cults have false objects of faith; therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
  2. If you put your faith in a vacuum cleaner, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment. You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you.
3. The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes:
  1. The Trinity - There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal, and of the same nature.
  2. Monotheism - There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.
4. The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
  1. The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world
  2. As God - Jesus must be God to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man.
    1. He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.
  3. As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man.
    1. As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).
Salvation by Grace
1. <LI type=A>"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph. 2:8-9, NIV).
2. "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4).
  1. <LI type=i>This verse and its context plainly teach that if you believe that you are saved by faith and works then you are not saved at all. This is a common error in the cults. Because they have a false Jesus, they have a false doctrine of salvation. (Read Rom. 3-5 and Gal. 3-5).
  2. you cannot add to the work of God. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (NIV)
3. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
  1. "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
  2. "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law" (Gal. 3:21).
The Resurrection of Christ
1. "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (1 Cor. 15:14). "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:17).
2. To deny the physical resurrection is to deny Jesus' work, sacrifice, and our resurrection.
3. These verses clearly state that if you say that Jesus did not rise from the dead (in the same body He died in -- John 2:19-21), then your faith is useless.
The Gospel
- "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8-9, NIV).
  - Verses 8 and 9 here in Galatians are a self declarative statement that you must believe the gospel. The gospel message which in its entirety is that Jesus is God in flesh, who died for sins, rose from the dead, and freely gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe.
  - Furthermore, it would not be possible to present the gospel properly without declaring that Jesus is God in flesh per John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8.
  1 Cor. 15:1-4 defines what the gospel is: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (NIV).
  - Within these verses are the essentials: Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9); Salvation is received by faith (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10), therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this gospel message automatically includes the essentials.

lismore · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
I would like to, but I don't know what you want me to explain because, when I asked you what you wanted me to explain, you chose to play games instead.

Please explain then. I dont have a scooby what your statement meant..........this is now the fourth time I have asked you to clarify................I dont have a clue what you meant only you do:

MikeMcK said:
What part of "In fact, this passage isn't even referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it's commonly practiced in the church today" did you not get?
.

Any of it. Please explain.............

lismore · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
While I normally do not care for copy and paste answers, I know that you will not believe anything I say, so I've chosen to let a well known and widely respected apologetics website answer on my behalf.Since I know that you won't believe anything I have to say, I've chosen to copy an explanation.

Before I put you on ignore, here you go:

You seem to have a huge degree of hostility towards me for some unknown reason.

What you quoted in the copy and paste, is all true! As I said to Benadam, I agree. But that doesnt mean we have to keep exclusively giving gospel messages at the expense of all other doctrines. The writer to the Hebrews accepts that his readers believe in Jesus, believe in the six foundational core doctrines for believers and then seeks to move on from that. Not laying the same foundation again and agian. You can be saved and move onto the fullness too, receive the Holy Spirit etc. You can believe in Jesus and look for the baptism in the Holy SPirit too!

If you have believers who are saved and been on the road for 20 years , you dont need to keep giving them a gospel message again and again when they have already responded to it. THe writer is saying lets move past the six foundational teachings that are giving to young believers: laying on of hands, judgement, repentance from rituals, faith in God, Baptisms, building on this foundation. Yes, all these foundations are essential for the believer to know! These are the essentials of the faith for a young believer! But lets move on.

Everyone comes to the foot of the cross as a sinner, but Im not a sinner now. Im a redeemed Child of God. I dont need to hear again and again how to be saved. I AM SAVED!

The gospel is not essential for the believer to hear, he has already heard it! Its essential that unbelievers hear the gospel.

For yourself it is essential that you hear that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is available for you.............................this is the essential doctrine you need to hear!

Jesus is the capstone, the six doctrines of Christ's teaching in Heb 1 the foundation, do you want to stay at ground zero forever? Be built in him, reach the roof!

Collosians 2: 6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

Do everything rooted in Christ, go back to the foot of the cross If needs be. But dont use Jesus as an excuse to put people off the fullness he has for them. We move forwards in him, not laying the foundations again and again and again. Yes Jesus is the only way, but yes we continue on in him, yes we receive the Holy Spirit and yes the Holy SPirit is an essential. If the Holy SPirit was not essential Jesus would not have said he was.

God Bless You

probinson · Jun 16, 2006

MikeMcK said:
...Before I put you on ignore, here you go: ...

Holy cow! It sure is getting crowded here on Mike's ignore list!

For anyone who's never had the pleasure of debating with Mike, let me summarize for you how it goes:

Mike is right. You are wrong. That is all.

A Brother In Christ · Jun 16, 2006

The church will be fulfilled when the last elected sinner that God ordained from the foundation of the world to believe and join the rest of us in His body and finnished the works of eph 2:10 then the rapture will happen

lismore · Jun 16, 2006

probinson said:
Holy cow! It sure is getting crowded here on Mike's ignore list!

For anyone who's never had the pleasure of debating with Mike, let me summarize for you how it goes:

Mike is right. You are wrong. That is all.

You on iggy too Pete?

Lets both blow a rasp at Mike then, Lol!

TheNarrowGate · Jun 17, 2006

To MikeMck you are being a RELIGIOUS BULLY that will cause Christians to lose their faith the way you are going on.

Pull the huge plank from your own eye so that you can pick out the speck in your brother's eye.

Build fellow Christians up don't tear them down.

Said with love to you brother

Narrow Gate

MikeMcK · Jun 17, 2006

TheNarrowGate said:
To MikeMck you are being a RELIGIOUS BULLY that will cause Christians to lose their faith the way you are going on.

OK. How is it being a "religious bully" to follow the Bible's command to stand up for sound doctrine?

Pull the huge plank from your own eye so that you can pick out the speck in your brother's eye.

What plank? What have I taught that's in error?

Build fellow Christians up don't tear them down.

Who have I "torn down"?

Said with love to you brother

Well, so far, you've accused me of being a "religious bully" but won't give us an example of what I've done or who I've "bullied". You've accused me of being a false teacher, but won't tell me what I've taught that's in error. You've accused me of "tearing fellow Christians down" but won't show us who I've "torn down" or how.

Exactly which part of this am I supposed to see as "loving"?

BarbB · Jun 17, 2006

I smell a sock! New poster, disabled "find all posts".

churchlady · Jun 17, 2006

I think it would be helpful, first of all, if MikeMcK would post the scripture where the word "essential" is used, since he seems adamant in the use of that word.

Secondly, the teachings that he copied and pasted would certainly be taught from the "doctrine of Christ" in Hebrews 6.

Even the first principle mentioned (Heb. 6:1) - 'repentance from dead works - faith toward God' would necessarily include the gospel of Christ (the basic salvation message that they are dead in their sins, the Son of God died on the cross for them), teachings necessary to lead one to the knowledge of their lost condition and need for Christ.

Then the second principle would lead them to water baptism of repentance and to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So for Mike to say that what he copied and pasted is not included in the Heb. 6 "doctrines of Christ" foundation is simply not true.

Then for him to say in post 7 (I think) that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not essential, when the Bible lists these teachings as the "doctrines of Christ" and the "foundation" and later, the "milk" - is really taking liberties with the Word.

This illustrates what I tried to point out in my thread "Building on the Right Foundation", what happens when a Christian is not thoroughly grounded in the basic doctrines of Christ - the milk, but goes on to try and chew meat instead. It results in a distortion of the plain truth.

charityagape · Jun 17, 2006

Mike is posting and debating in the Baptist forums as well as the Penecostal forums, which might explain some things, anyway can people debate in both the Baptist and the Penecostal forums, aren't those nearly opposite ends of the spectrum?

TheNarrowGate · Jun 17, 2006

MikeMcK said:
Well, so far, you've accused me of being a "religious bully" but won't give us an example of what I've done or who I've "bullied". You've accused me of being a false teacher, but won't tell me what I've taught that's in error. You've accused me of "tearing fellow Christians down" but won't show us who I've "torn down" or how.

Exactly which part of this am I supposed to see as "loving"?

MikeMck again you come with an argumentative spirit. Go and look at your last 20 posts with an open and honest heart there you will see the RELIGIOUS Bully staring at you. I said nothing of you being a false teacher, that is you jumping to your own conclusion - perhaps you need to look at that, why bring it up?

Again look back at your posts there you will see Christians who you've tried to bash over the head and bully.You criticize fellow Christians over small points and yet you lose sight of your own heart.

Alpine · Jun 17, 2006

MikeMcK, I have a question for you...

Do you believe that all gifts of the Spirit are for today? Including tongues and prophecy (such as the way pentecostals/charismatics practice them?)

A Brother In Christ · Jun 17, 2006

A Brother In Christ said:
The church will be fulfilled when the last elected sinner that God ordained from the foundation of the world to believe and join the rest of us in His body and finnished the works of eph 2:10 then the rapture will happen

MikeMcK · Jun 18, 2006

TheNarrowGate said:
MikeMck again you come with an argumentative spirit. Go and look at your last 20 posts with an open and honest heart there you will see the RELIGIOUS Bully staring at you.

So then, it's so obvious, but you can't even give us one example?

I said nothing of you being a false teacher, that is you jumping to your own conclusion - perhaps you need to look at that, why bring it up?

No, you're the one who said regarding me questioning Hagee's teachings, "Pull the huge plank from your own eye so that you can pick out the speck in your brother's eye".

Again look back at your posts there you will see Christians who you've tried to bash over the head and bully.You criticize fellow Christians over small points and yet you lose sight of your own heart.

And the fact that you can't give us an example calls your claims into question.

MikeMcK · Jun 18, 2006

Alpine said:
MikeMcK, I have a question for you...

Do you believe that all gifts of the Spirit are for today? Including tongues and prophecy (such as the way pentecostals/charismatics practice them?)

Would I be a charismatic if I didn't?

I know why Jesus has not returned yet!

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