I have some questions...

TCat · May 28, 2007

I am fairly new to the LCMS. I come from a Baptist/Methodist backround and am on milk as far as doctrine is concerned so please be patient with me.

The Means of Grace

I understand that Baptism and Communion are considered Means by which God acts for us, forgiving our sins and strengthing our faith.
What scriptures tell us that these are means?

I have read in some posts and other texts that some people would suggest that God ONLY works through the means, does this mean that Lutherans might say that God is not present and working anywhere else?

I understand that neither of these are required for salvation, but that these two are the major reasons for nonunity with other Christian denominations, why?

DaRev · May 28, 2007

TCat said:
I am fairly new to the LCMS. I come from a Baptist/Methodist backround and am on milk as far as doctrine is concerned so please be patient with me.

The Means of Grace

I understand that Baptism and Communion are considered Means by which God acts for us, forgiving our sins and strengthing our faith.
What scriptures tell us that these are means?

I have read in some posts and other texts that some people would suggest that God ONLY works through the means, does this mean that Lutherans might say that God is not present and working anywhere else?

I understand that neither of these are required for salvation, but that these two are the major reasons for nonunity with other Christian denominations, why?

The Means of Grace are Word and Sacrament. The word of God creates, grows, and sustains faith in the believer. Read Romans 10:13-17.

Baptism is the word of God united with water. Jesus told Nicodemus, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." This speaks directly of our baptism. Jesus also told His disciples to make disciples of all peoples by baptizing in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He also said, as recorded in Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Paul tells us in Romans 6:3-6, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

The Lord's Supper is also a means by which our faith is strengethened and sins forgiven, by Christ's command. Jesus said, "Take and eat. This is My body, given for you for the forgiveness of sins. Take and drink, this is My blood shed for you for the forgiveness of sins." The word of God united with the elements of bread and wine are what make the Lard's Supper a means of grace.

Does that automatically mean that God does not operate through other means and in other ways? No. But these means are given to us through His Divine Service to us. We can point to the means as where the Spirit of God actively and continually provides and strengthens our faith.

TCat · May 28, 2007

What defines the His Divine Service to us?

After reading a great many posts by another LCMS member in a theology debate I understand more about infant baptism and it is how it is God's work by grace not our own through decision making. Is it correct to say that baptism offers an imparting of the Holy Spirit but not necessarily salvation?

I think I am beginning to understand more about why the LCMS does not teach OSAS. Since baptism does not offer salvation and to many people were baptised as infants but have chosen to reject His grace and offer of salvation. It is clear that one can walk away from Him to their damnation.

Am I on the right tract here?

filosofer · May 28, 2007

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Howdy. Also, note that batpism is always something done to/for the person.

Acts 2:38-39
And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized [passive] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

In the following passage baptism saves, and throughout Scripture we know that only God saves.

1 Peter 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you

Then the connection between "washing of regeneration"

Titus 3:4-7
... he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And finally in Matthew 28, Jesus gives a form of the Great Commission: "make dicisples". But see what "tools" are used to accomplish that lifelong process:

Matthew 28:19-20a
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

In Christ's love,
filo

PS: All Scriptures from ESV, unless noted.
[/font]

DaRev · May 28, 2007

TCat said:
What defines the His Divine Service to us?

After reading a great many posts by another LCMS member in a theology debate I understand more about infant baptism and it is how it is God's work by grace not our own through decision making. Is it correct to say that baptism offers an imparting of the Holy Spirit but not necessarily salvation?

I think I am beginning to understand more about why the LCMS does not teach OSAS. Since baptism does not offer salvation and to many people were baptised as infants but have chosen to reject His grace and offer of salvation. It is clear that one can walk away from Him to their damnation.

Am I on the right tract here?

Baptism does save. 1 Peter 3:21 says, "baptism now saves you." As Jesus also says in John 3:5, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Here He speaks directly about baptism.

But Baptism is not a one time thing. We return to our baptismal promise every time we confess our sins to God and seek His forgiveness. It is a continual process of contrition, repentance, confession and absolution. It is said that the life of a Christian is a life of repentance.

It is always possible for one to walk away from the faith.

TCat · May 28, 2007

But if one is unrepentant, does their baptism no longer offers salvation? Does that mean that if a child is baptised because of family tradition but without the benefit of Christian instruction and chooses to follow another god they are not saved?

I know people who have come to faith as adults without the benefit of baptism so is it correct to state that it is only one of the means of salvation? Does that then mean that the Lord's supper is also a means of salvation?

I know these are a lot of questions, but I really am very curious. I am rereading the Summary of Christian Doctrine but it is very dry and in some places confusing.

Studeclunker · May 28, 2007

DaRev said:
It is always possible for one to walk away from the faith.

Into hopelessness, despair and damnation. God forbid!!

filosofer · May 28, 2007

TCat said:
But if one is unrepentant, does their baptism no longer offers salvation? Does that mean that if a child is baptised because of family tradition but without the benefit of Christian instruction and chooses to follow another god they are not saved?

I know people who have come to faith as adults without the benefit of baptism so is it correct to state that it is only one of the means of salvation? Does that then mean that the Lord's supper is also a means of salvation?

I know these are a lot of questions, but I really am very curious. I am rereading the Summary of Christian Doctrine but it is very dry and in some places confusing.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Yes, Baptism is one of the means of grace. Note in Matthew 28 (quoted above) that there are two tools to begin faith: Baptism and the Word. There are also two tools to sustain and grow faith: The Word and Lord's Supper. See the appropriate passages about the Lord's Supper and forgiveness of sins: Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-26, Luke 22:19-20 and 1 Cor. 11:23-30 and 1 Cor. 10:16.

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

DaRev · May 28, 2007

TCat said:
But if one is unrepentant, does their baptism no longer offers salvation? Does that mean that if a child is baptised because of family tradition but without the benefit of Christian instruction and chooses to follow another god they are not saved?

I know people who have come to faith as adults without the benefit of baptism so is it correct to state that it is only one of the means of salvation? Does that then mean that the Lord's supper is also a means of salvation?

I know these are a lot of questions, but I really am very curious. I am rereading the Summary of Christian Doctrine but it is very dry and in some places confusing.

Unrepentance is a sign of unbelief. Repentance is also a work of the Holy Spirit in us. If one is unrepentant, they are resisting the grace of God and therefore are in fear of damnation.

If one comes to faith as an adult and is not baptized, my question would be "why"? Why are they not baptized? If it's because they feel they do not need baptism, I would question their faith. If it's because they desire it but have not had the opportunity to be baptized, that's a different story.

Lutherans believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, but not absolutely necessary.

From Luther's Small Catechism:

The Sacrament of Holy Baptism

As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.

First.
What is Baptism?--Answer.
Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God's command and connected with God's Word.
Which is that word of God?--Answer.
Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Secondly.
What does Baptism give or profit?--Answer.
It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Which are such words and promises of God? Answer.
Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Thirdly.
How can water do such great things?--Answer.
It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.

Fourthly.
What does such baptizing with water signify?--Answer.
It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.
Where is this written?--Answer.
St. Paul says Romans, chapter 6: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

TCat · May 28, 2007

I know the fear of the OSAS teaching is that one can easily fall into cheap grace but to think that our salvation is not really assured unless we are continually in a state of repentance is also a terrifying thought.
I for one am not always ready to repent, sometimes I struggle with God over my sin and am in a state of rebellion, does that affect ones salvation?

DaRev · May 28, 2007

TCat said:
I know the fear of the OSAS teaching is that one can easily fall into cheap grace but to think that our salvation is not really assured unless we are continually in a state of repentance is also a terrifying thought.

But, again, repentance is worked in us by the Holy Spirit.

I for one am not always ready to repent,

I have concerns with this statement. If you are confronted with your sin, why would you as a believer not want to repent and receive God's forgiveness?

sometimes I struggle with God over my sin and am in a state of rebellion, does that affect ones salvation?

If our rebellion against God does not end in contrition and repentance, then it's a faith issue. Our salvation is TOTALLY the work of God. Our damnation is TOTALLY our own doing.

TCat · May 28, 2007

I should have clarified, I am not always ready to repent right away. I often find myself wrestling with God and stamping my foot and whining at Him, but He always wins!

I am trying to understand this, Christ died for the forgivenss of our sin and by faith given by the Holy Spirit either at baptsim or some other time we believe and recieve His grace and salvation. But we can lose it if we are not continually in repentance?
Is that why we recieve the Lord's Supper so often, to continually receive forgiveness, it is an ongoing thing not a once and for all thing through Christ since we continue to sin over and over?

filosofer · May 28, 2007

TCat said:
I should have clarified, I am not always ready to repent right away. I often find myself wrestling with God and stamping my foot and whining at Him, but He always wins!

I am trying to understand this, Christ died for the forgivenss of our sin and by faith given by the Holy Spirit either at baptsim or some other time we believe and recieve His grace and salvation. But we can lose it if we are not continually in repentance?
Is that why we recieve the Lord's Supper so often, to continually receive forgiveness, it is an ongoing thing not a once and for all thing through Christ since we continue to sin over and over?

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Exactly. In Luther's explanation we read "daily drowning the old man"... it is continuous fighting.

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

TCat · May 28, 2007

So can we be assured of our salvation at all? It seems that no one can know that they are not harboring some unconfessed sin somewhere, or that they are unaware of some sin they are commiting. I know that God demands obedience and submission but this makes me question my salvation.
How can I know that I know that I am saved?

TCat · May 28, 2007

If the Lord's Supper is the way or a way that God forgives us and we are not to come unworthily to the table how can we know if we are coming in the right way?
Case in point, there is one person that I struggle daily for forgive. I try and try to let go of anger and bitterness but in truth I hate this person and would gladly spit in his face or worse if I were to see him in person ever again. I am not repentant of the hatred I feel, I do not want to forgive him ever.
Should I not take communion because I am in unrepentance about forgiving this person?

DaRev · May 28, 2007

TCat said:
If the Lord's Supper is the way or a way that God forgives us and we are not to come unworthily to the table how can we know if we are coming in the right way?
Case in point, there is one person that I struggle daily for forgive. I try and try to let go of anger and bitterness but in truth I hate this person and would gladly spit in his face or worse if I were to see him in person ever again. I am not repentant of the hatred I feel, I do not want to forgive him ever.
Should I not take communion because I am in unrepentance about forgiving this person?

Matthew 6:14-15, "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

How can you expect forgiveness when you are unwilling to give it?

TCat · May 28, 2007

There lies the rub, I have faith in God and love Jesus with all my heart but find it impossible to forgive this one person. I guess I need to stop taking Communion until I figure this thing out. As it stands I don't see myself taking it ever again if this is the criteria necessary for salvation.
I guess I was hoping that God's grace and forgiveness was greater than my sin and unforgiveness of this one man.
Thank you for your clarification and help.

filosofer · May 28, 2007

TCat said:
There lies the rub, I have faith in God and love Jesus with all my heart but find it impossible to forgive this one person. I guess I need to stop taking Communion until I figure this thing out. As it stands I don't see myself taking it ever again if this is the criteria necessary for salvation.
I guess I was hoping that God's grace and forgiveness was greater than my sin and unforgiveness of this one man.
Thank you for your clarification and help.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Before you jump to that conclusion, you might want to consider further this issue. there is a difference between refusing to forgive becaus eof hurt, and refusing to forgive because of hardness of heart.

the Gospel is that Christ has forgiven you and for you, that is, he has forgiven the other person in your stead. You may be so hurt by what happened that it seems impossible to forgive. Christ knows that. He forgives in your place for you. The Lord's Supper is part (along with the Word) of God's means of bringing to you the fullness of the forgiveness of sins which Christ earned for you. In other words, the only means by which you can grow in your faith is not to be avoided because of your sense of shortcoming. Your sense that something isn't right with your stance is an indication that is still at work in your heart. You do not seem to be at the proint of hardness of heart.

This is not an easy situation. But don't cut yourself off from the forgiveness that God provides.

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

TCat · May 28, 2007

Thank you filo, I am being told to forgive by some because that is the Christian thing to do. Personally I'd rather eat dirt but you are correct that I feel called to forgive and I know that for my hearts sake the btterness and anger are causing barriers between God and myself.

Maybe the time for forgiveness has not yet come. Maybe I need to instead just pray for the willingness to forgive.

So I should continue to take communion? Is it my work or God's? Is it His forgiveness or my asking for it that makes it grace? Interesting thoughts

filosofer · May 28, 2007

for my hearts sake the btterness and anger are causing barriers between God and myself.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Since I don't know all the specifics, I would say that you should talk to your pastor about this. But my general advice is that since you are struggling with this, you need all that God offers in the way of strength, encourgament, forgiveness, etc. Thus, the Lord's Supper is one of those "means" that is critical in this time of spiritual need. I think God can handle your anger, bitterness, and sin... That's why Jesus went to the cross.

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

I have some questions...

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